Nice and ongoing terror attacks in W Europe

Corpsey

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
As others have pointed out, if America wasn't ready to do something about guns after Sandy Hook...

The paradoxical fallout of these attacks is not that guns are seen as more dangerous and so they are clamped down on, but that guns are so dangerous they need to be defended against with more guns.

The line I'm seeing most on Twitter is that 'criminals will find a way' to get guns even if they're illegal.

I can't imagine America ever doing anything about guns, especially with Drumpf in the driving seat. And so the mass shooting becomes another natural disaster - just hope you aren't swept up in one.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Corpsey said:
The paradoxical fallout of these attacks is not that guns are seen as more dangerous and so they are clamped down on, but that guns are so dangerous they need to be defended against with more guns.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was thinking in the car just earlier when this was on the news again: Where were all the 'good gunmen', the armed citizens ready at a moment's notice to stop something like this as soon as it starts? And at the massacre before that, and the one before that, and the one before that...
 
Last edited:
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
i read some comments from security at that concert, who had concealed carry permits and were armed. they said they couldn't fire back because the police hadn't figured out where the gunfire was coming from, so there was a high likelihood the cops would have mistaken the security guys for the gunman and start shooting AT THEM.

so much for the "good guy" theory.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
The NRA guy on Radio 4 was definitely taking the position that people who want to kill people will find a way and NOT going for the "good gunman" position at all.

I assume this is because even he could see that a whole music festival audience shooting at a hotel was probably not a great tactic.

The best thing that can happen is that the culture in the US changes and it slowly become less and less acceptable to be a gun owner or at least to have a whole shed of automatic weapons. I think there is some move towards that but you'll always have a significant population who care about their inalienable right to weaponry above anything else.
 
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
john eden said:
The NRA guy on Radio 4 was definitely taking the position that people who want to kill people will find a way and NOT going for the "good gunman" position at all.
Click to expand...

true, bad guys will always be able to get guns. but there's a disconnect with that argument because those bad guys (aka, criminals) don't commit mass shootings. those "bad guys" use their guns in the commission of crimes...robberies, car jackings, etc. mass shootings are typically committed by seemingly normal people who have anger issues, mental issues, etc. if tightened gun laws can prevent even one of those seemingly normal people from getting guns and going on a rampage, it's worth it.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
Leo said:
true, bad guys will always be able to get guns. but there's a disconnect with that argument because those bad guys (aka, criminals) don't commit mass shootings. those "bad guys" use their guns in the commission of crimes...robberies, car jackings, etc. mass shootings are typically committed by seemingly normal people who have anger issues, mental issues, etc. if tightened gun laws can prevent even one of those seemingly normal people from getting guns and going on a rampage, it's worth it.
Click to expand...

Perhaps there is an overarching point here which is that if the bad guys are going to be able to get guns to commit a robbery that honest citizens should be able to get them too so they can defend themselves? I don't agree with that, but it is logical I guess.

The only problem is that mass shootings then become collateral - an unfortunate side show to the main event. A price worth paying...
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Leo said:
mass shootings are typically committed by seemingly normal people who have anger issues, mental issues, etc.
Click to expand...

Exactly - it's far more likely going to be someone who's never been in trouble before than some mean-looking guy with prison tats and a record sheet as long as his arm.
 
Corpsey

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/shooting-isnt-about-gun-control-we-refuse-pass-its-57095

'As our nation struggles to come to grips with the horrible tragedy in Las Vegas, it’s only natural for people to search for an explanation of how an atrocity like this could have happened and to call on their elected officials to take measures to prevent such terrible bloodshed from occurring again in the future. Unfortunately, however, we’ve seen enough of these incidents to know that some people will rush to blame firearms for this carnage and will demand that Congress enact sweeping gun restrictions, engaging in misguided efforts that completely miss the underlying reasons behind the violence we’re seeing.

The simple truth is, mass shootings like this aren’t about gun control we refuse to pass. They’re about access to mental health care that we will continue to gut.'
 
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
the questions remain: why do so many more people per capita have guns in the states versus anywhere else? and why do we have so many more shootings compared to anywhere else (...i guess cuz we have so many more guns, duh).

is it all due to the stereotypical macho/freedom-loving "don't tread on me" american psyche?
 
firefinga

firefinga

Well-known member
Leo said:
the questions remain: why do so many more people per capita have guns in the states versus anywhere else? and why do we have so many more shootings compared to anywhere else (...i guess cuz we have so many more guns, duh).

is it all due to the stereotypical macho/freedom-loving "don't tread on me" american psyche?
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, the relative number of guns per capita is similar in Switzerland (due to the nature of their army service, which allows people to have guns - even semi automatic guns I think, in their homes). Yet there was only one incidence in 2001 I believe in Switzerland which would qualify as a gunman running amok.

Yes, I think it must have got something to do with a widespread attitude towards gun use in the US.
 
Corpsey

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Perhaps it's simply a side of America to which we are exposed via the media, but America seems more extreme than the UK in all sorts of ways - and the level of violence seems particularly extreme.

According to Wiki, 76% of all known serial killers in the 20th century were from the United States.

Some interesting speculations re: this here https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-...al-killers-than-any-other-first-world-country

Of course, this could well be largely about population size. After all, Britain has produced its monsters (the Wests, Nielsen, Moors Murderers, etc.)

A side note: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-prescription-drugs/?utm_term=.c530902f0fdc

To blame prescription drugs for these massacres would be a gross simplification, but some incidents (such as the Dark Knight Rises shooting) have been connected with the use of SSRIs like Sertraline.
 
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
US media have some of the fault here, i think. the alienation and paranoia -- not to mention the rise of trump/trumpism -- we see now is a product of 20+ years of fox news and its uglier offspring stoking the fears of an apparently easily swayed segment of the population. as p.t. barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute". he meant it in regards to getting their money, but it applies to a people's political and social beliefs as well.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, it's all about public perceptions of the overall levels of crime. People in many countries are far more likely to think there's more violent crime today than in the (recent) past, even where levels have remained stable or declined. The internet and the rise of 24-hour news (and non-news bullshit, of course) must have a lot to do with this.

In the USA in particular, violent crime has fallen by well over a third since it peaked in about 1993, but private gun ownership has continued to increase at the same rate it did during the 80s and early 90s, when violent crime actually was increasing:
 

Attachments

  • USviolent-crime-rate-and-private-firearm-ownership-1981-2007_zpsffe1439d.jpg
    USviolent-crime-rate-and-private-firearm-ownership-1981-2007_zpsffe1439d.jpg
    116.2 KB · Views: 35
Last edited:
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
agree, tea, but the fear being stoked by some US media goes beyond crime. it's the fear of immigrants stealing their jobs, fear of a black president stealing their "american values", a fear of liberal/socialists college professors stealing the impressionable minds of the next generation, a fear of the coastal elites stealing their right to bear arms and mocking their religious beliefs, football players (!) showing a lack of patriotism, etc. etc.

the fear of "the other".
 
Last edited:
firefinga

firefinga

Well-known member
Mr. Tea said:
Yeah, it's all about public perceptions of the overall levels of crime. People in many countries are far more likely to think there's more violent crime today than in the (recent) past, even where levels have remained stable or declined. The internet and the rise of 24-hour news (and non-news bullshit, of course) must have a lot to do with this.

In the USA in particular, violent crime has fallen by well over a third since it peaked in about 1993, but private gun ownership has continued to increase at the same rate it did during the 80s and early 90s, when violent crime actually was increasing:
Click to expand...

I am surprised by the linear increase in actual private gun ownership over the years. I am by no means surprised that the violent crime rate peaked during the Late Reagan and Bush senior years when the official policy on the poor was "fuck em, let them fend for themselves."

In fact, Trump seems to be even more "radical" in those terms, so expect a swift increase in that regard soon enough.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Leo said:
US media have some of the fault here, i think. the alienation and paranoia -- not to mention the rise of trump/trumpism -- we see now is a product of 20+ years of fox news and its uglier offspring stoking the fears of an apparently easily swayed segment of the population. as p.t. barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute". he meant it in regards to getting their money, but it applies to a people's political and social beliefs as well.
Click to expand...

Oh sure, the crime thing is just one part of the overall picture - but a fairly big part of it, all the same, especially when it comes to resistance to any change in gun laws.

And while that's naturally home territory for Republicans and their voters, I bet an awful lot of Democrat voters would also say "yes" if you asked them "Is violent crime higher than it was a generation ago?" - although that's just a hunch on my part.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top