rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
Otoh I feel kind of burnt out on listening to music. Researching finding out about new/old music, different genres and scenes used to be something I found a great deal of satisfaction in. But I kind of feel like there isn't any mystery anymore. There's no secret scene or undiscovered gems anymore, I've literally heard the entire history of recorded sound, and there's a real jadedness that comes along with that (obviously illusory) thought.

impossible. i dont believe you really have heard it all.

and, yes everything is a click away, but doesnt mean you/everyone will make that click.

though saying that, its more just the idea that its all there thats offputting (maybe just cos it lacks the sense of there being any secrets, which is partly what music appreciation was about, finding something new) and led to my own malaise. it takes some of the lustre away to know its all just there (though this goes through phases, sometimes the fact its all so easy to get is exciting, other times it disheartening).
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
There's also the fact that we're ignoring the physical world. Artists use the internet as the communication tool but I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests. I know everyone's caught up on the notion that EVERYONE'S PLUGGED IN MAAAAAAN but I feel like with certain communities there has to be a consistent reaction to the localized community you've built with likeminded folks, presuming you've done that.

I get that once music is on the internet, it intangibly achieves instant accessibility, but people construct songs for intended audiences. I also get that sometimes the artist doesn't pick the audience, but don't you think that if an audience comes after something with a perspective that are viciously at odds with that of the artist, it could do harm to the artist's vision?
 

griftert

Well-known member
but it doesn't mean that the whole world will listen! i don't believe in this argument that there can't be underground with internet - yes the tune you uploaded is available to the (almost) whole world now, but only few might listen to it.

there's loads of cutting edge music around internet, and it frustrates to hear complains how everything can be heard/is already heard, when at the same time the forward thinking stuff gets ignored... :(

Well, I'll believe it when I hear it. I don't know what forward thinking stuff would even sound like nowadays. But yeah I think part of it is 'no secrets' anymore either.
 

Leo

Well-known member
Otoh I feel kind of burnt out on listening to music. Researching finding out about new/old music, different genres and scenes used to be something I found a great deal of satisfaction in. But I kind of feel like there isn't any mystery anymore. There's no secret scene or undiscovered gems anymore, I've literally heard the entire history of recorded sound, and there's a real jadedness that comes along with that (obviously illusory) thought.

impossible. i dont believe you really have heard it all.

and, yes everything is a click away, but doesnt mean you/everyone will make that click.

though saying that, its more just the idea that its all there thats offputting (maybe just cos it lacks the sense of there being any secrets, which is partly what music appreciation was about, finding something new) and led to my own malaise. it takes some of the lustre away to know its all just there (though this goes through phases, sometimes the fact its all so easy to get is exciting, other times it disheartening).

isn't part of this "burnt out/malaise" also just a symptom of getting older? despite the ideal of staying on top of things, etc., most people eventually tend to settle in with certain artists/genres and fall victim to an "oh, it was better back in the day" mentality. i definitely have this tendency from time to time, so much new stuff just sounds either uninspiring or like a lesser retread of something i liked the first time around.

not too long before i'll be moving the 12"s to the basement and listening to old jazz records...:eek:
 

luka

Well-known member
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

I don't disagree with this.
 

luka

Well-known member
Well obviously I don't disagree, I been banging on about it for ages but I'd like to keep talking about it
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

this is also just the internet's social culture. the idea of not really going against the grain, but working with the grain, helping the grain, being part of the grain.
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
"I feel like you can tell the difference between an artist who's formed their career around the parameters of internet desire and physical parameters of local interests."

this is also just the internet's social culture. the idea of not really going against the grain, but working with the grain, helping the grain, being part of the grain.

No see, therein lies the problem I feel. You can tell a difference between internet mimicry and real life. Even IRL mimics there's... a disambiguation.

You see elements of this in say, 'grime fan-fiction' instrumentals, or in hipster rappers who pretend to have a street image such as Travis Scott or OG Maco specifically. There's this sort of bizarre novelty aspect that is readily accepted without question, and you can tell it has the self-reflexive qualities of the internet behind it. But why is there a need to... to make this 'barrier' art. Art that obviously lifts/draws from the lower classes, but never goes to the effort to engage with the lower classes, unless its on their terms?

Like, the initial wave of middle-class people messing about with grime, there was cross-collaboration, awkward and ungainly as they'd often be, they were there. The effort was made. Can you say the same of a lot of the 2010 onward faces? Its no longer as balanced in my book.
 

luka

Well-known member
I wonder what rudewhy regretted typing.
Crowleyhead is consciously deliberately laying down the gauntlet. I don't see why that shouldn't be picked up. A bit of honest debate never hurt anyone
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
What if you don't have a culture? Should you just not bother doing anything?

If its not your culture, and you make a point of caring about the culture, you should at least make the point of trying to make your engagement as fair and rewarding as possible, yet also recognize that can greatly affect how your artist looks and views his career. Also, you might not want to support things that undermine and perhaps even go as far as to riddicule the artists who are legitimately trying.
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Like if he cussed your mum would you be silent lol

Was it here or on another board where I got ill wished upon me by someone for not trying to hear the J Dilla fandom? I know I definitely took a few knocks in that Sacred Cow thread for it.

Dissensus is always fun when someone gets TUFF.
 

luka

Well-known member
I like winding up my mates, a lot and I especially like winding up a very good friend of mine who despite being a hiphop obsessive won't engage with anything contemporary besides homeboy sandman and action bronson. So for fun I said white people should never rap, can't rap, by definition which made him really mad, which was obviously my.intention and when he demanded I justify it I sent him this which is deliberately a bit basic and tendentious but also contains a lot of what I believe for better or worse



any given musical form,whether it is rap, reggae,rock or jungle, is an expression, an outgrowth, of culture, of a way of being, a mode of existence, an historical inheritance,a place in society. I think music is like the rhythm of your words, or the rhythm of your walk. i think it is fundamental to your being. it is your breath made audible. the very essence of who you are,and a reflection of those things which made you.

when the blues was taken from the country (delta blues) to the industrial north, it became something completly new. (chicago blues) why? becasue it came from altered cultural and social circumstances. you cannot make delta blues in chicago. the input determines the output if the art is genuine. anything else is mere mimicry.

when hip-hop first arrived in the UK it inspired mimicry. over time it interbred with dance music and reggae and gave birth to a genuine natural art form. jungle. jungle is not mimicry. it is art. it is living culture.

it is my contention that hip-hop is so bound up with the actual fact of being african-american, that no one but african-americans can make it. or, to put it in less inflammatory language, when other people make it,it becomes something different. white-rap,for example.

why does rap from memphis sound so utterly different from rap from new york? the rhythm of life is different. people speak at a different pace, and with different cadence. people walk at a different pace, and with a different rhythm, body language is different,social relations are different, the built and the natural enviroment is different, the weather is different.
if the culture is differernt then necessarily the music will be different as well. the two things are INSEPERABLE.

therefore,a white american, who again, necessrily, inhabits a completely different world to an african-american, rhyming over a beat, will not be making hip-hop,or will at best, be making 'white-rap' or, even worse (becasue of the dishonesty and fraudulence involved) will be making a mimicry, or a forgery.

a white man cannot play the blues. they can play the chords, but they cannot play the blues, becuase they cannot inhabit the experience that informs the blues,that is to say,the experience of being black in america at a time when slavery was in the recent past. I
 

luka

Well-known member
I think somewhere I might have the more advanced version I've mapped out for myself tomorrow if I get time I might try and look for it
 

luka

Well-known member
It's not an area where you can draw definite lines in the sand though, that goes without saying
 

luka

Well-known member
Shared experience giving rise to a shared means of expression is the crux of it I guess
 

griftert

Well-known member
Good post. I don't have anything to challenge you with luka as I have no sense of cultural identity tbh.
 
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