GRIME- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

SIZZLE said:

I know that discussing this stuff on the net is a bit bait, however, since we are discussing it already, who can lay out the most widely accepted version of events as to how this happened exactly? Is there a printed account somewhere that you've all read?

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there is this

Murdered in front of 12 friends yet no one saw a thing
Evening Standard (London), Nov 25, 2005 by KEITH DOVKANTS

IT WAS after midnight when the boy with the gun turned up at the place they call The Gazebo. It's a fancy name for a rain shelter that serves as a hangout, and when he arrived more than a dozen young people were sitting around, talking, drinking and smoking.

Richard Holmes saw him coming.

He stood to face him, and as he did, three pistol shots rang out. The bullets tore into 21-year-old Holmes at close range and he fell dying. His killer walked away and the crowd at The Gazebo watched him and recognised him, as they were meant to.

That was part of the ritual.

so those in the know always knew it was titch then eh ? but some code of the streets wouldn't allow them to talk. That's pretty fucked up if you ask me.

man, holy shit

the undisputed truth said:

there is this

Murdered in front of 12 friends yet no one saw a thing
Evening Standard (London), Nov 25, 2005 by KEITH DOVKANTS

IT WAS after midnight when the boy with the gun turned up at the place they call The Gazebo. It's a fancy name for a rain shelter that serves as a hangout, and when he arrived more than a dozen young people were sitting around, talking, drinking and smoking.

Richard Holmes saw him coming.

He stood to face him, and as he did, three pistol shots rang out. The bullets tore into 21-year-old Holmes at close range and he fell dying. His killer walked away and the crowd at The Gazebo watched him and recognised him, as they were meant to.

That was part of the ritual.

so those in the know always knew it was titch then eh ? but some code of the streets wouldn't allow them to talk. That's pretty fucked up if you ask me.

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That differs in almost every detail to the BBC news report on the sentencing linked up thread.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6110950.stm

Ned said:

Yeah I can't really disagree with you, the thing is though: in order to smash up the stereotype 'Grime is about violence', people have to be aware of that stereotype (and its effects) in the first place, and I don't think most Guardian readers are. And obviously space is very limited. I tried to include at least a hint of optimism though.

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oh fuck right off mate. you are part of the problem, not the solution! feel ashamed, feel very fucking ashamed. why?

(1) you did not remotely 'smash the stereotype' up.
(2) you didn't even bruise the stereotype, you spent most of the time establishing and then (re-)enforcing it.
(3) if there's one thing readers of the mainstream press DO 'know' about grime, it's about its association with violence!

the only thing you got right was your comment here that there were probably loads of errors. "too often, grime beefs erupt into real bloodshed." now obviously even once counts as 'too often', but since you are clearly implying that this is a regular occurence, would you care to give me some other examples?

attitudes like yours are suffocating what remains of an inspired, inspiring music scene. i hope you're proud of yourself. enjoy spending the money.

how does one even get to blog on the guardian? are you a guardian writer?

ps - can i just remind everyone that gun crime has gone down in the last year - as opposed to being "out of control". jesus christ that blog post could have been on the daily mail's website.

ChineseArithmetic said:

Out of curiousity, what's a rebore?

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a rebore is a replica or decommissioned gun which are - or were until recently - legal to buy, which then has the barrel drilled/re-commissioned/bored (re-bored) into a working firearm. in the my-guns-bigger-than-yours hierarchy they're the lowest rung, because they're considered unreliable and potentially not safe to the owner.

I'm under no obligation to present grime in the best possible light to the point of downplaying the importance of a murder - grime has a problem with violence and that's a fact. I am just pleased that I got links to JME and Skepta's Myspace pages on a website read by thirteen million people. The Daily Mail would have said 'grime is all about violence - avoid'; I said 'grime shouldn't be about violence - and without the violence, it still has a chance to be massive'. I think that's fair enough. Naturally anyone is free to pitch an article in response or just leave something in the comments box under the article.

Aarrgghhh

damnit, ive tried 3 seperate times now to order a copy of Anthem / Banger by Charmzy, and each of the three times it hasnt arrived in the bundle of records i received.

the first two times it was rhythm division then independance records, now its happened again from ukrecordshop. this is most annoying.

@Ned:

mos dan said:

"too often, grime beefs erupt into real bloodshed." now obviously even once counts as 'too often', but since you are clearly implying that this is a regular occurence, would you care to give me some other examples?

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Ned said:

I'm under no obligation to present grime in the best possible light to the point of downplaying the importance of a murder - grime has a problem with violence and that's a fact. I am just pleased that I got links to JME and Skepta's Myspace pages on a website read by thirteen million people. The Daily Mail would have said 'grime is all about violence - avoid'; I said 'grime shouldn't be about violence - and without the violence, it still has a chance to be massive'. I think that's fair enough. Naturally anyone is free to pitch an article in response or just leave something in the comments box under the article.

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Surely though you understand media coverage is less about the precise details of what you say and more about how the piece contributes to the mood music around a particular situation. Anybody who doesn't know much about grime is going to make a simple evaluation based on your words, which is grime = murder, gun crime, out of control kids in the inner cities etc etc.

I find it really frustrating equating the Titch verdict to grime in late 06 - when was the last time he made a contribution to the music? He will have been on remand for a year probably. What does the case represent about grime in 2006 - very little I'd say.

Logos said:

Surely though you understand media coverage is less about the precise details of what you say and more about how the piece contributes to the mood music around a particular situation. Anybody who doesn't know much about grime is going to make a simple evaluation based on your words, which is grime = murder, gun crime, out of control kids in the inner cities etc etc.

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Maybe, but I don't think it's my responsibility to simplify my writing to cater to people who can't be bothered to pay proper attention to what I'm saying. Anyway, that evaluation will already be firmly in their heads when they see the original news article - at least mine suggests things have a potential for improvement and, as I said, will hopefully send a few people to JME's Myspace page. Ultimately my priority is to state my real opinions, not to boost grime at every opportunity - why should that be my job?

Other examples - Dizzee getting stabbed in Cyprus?

Anyway, if you're worried about the article's slant, there is a space directly below for you to respond, please do make use of it.

why does grime have to continually be assessed on whether its positive or negative? sometimes its both. dizzee had plenty of songs about shanks etc but he also had songs about kids being positive and telling them to 'dream'. this notion that it has to be a binary, or worse, when people try to defend its less than savoury elements by saying they are deep down positive is a bit tired. id rather artists didnt sanitise themselves and theres more to grime than violent threats, but if its violent, or not exactly violent but talks about things related to violence, then thats what it does. no point in sugarcoating it. when skepta says load magazines like chantelle fiddy, thats not exactly 'positive' but its a good lyric all the same.

If you think people had guns pulled out on them over a not even directly insulting 1 line of a tune you definitely live in Hoxton or socialise with people who do.

Secondly, that article, just like every other one written ties the violence into the music, not the music into the violence.

There is no law of the streets preached in music. The music relays the laws of the streets to people. If anyone really wanted to do anything about the violence in London and the rest of the country's major cities then they should listen to as much Grime as possible and then go into the streets armed with some sort of knowledge of the ignorant attitudes held by some of these people.

Thankfully in this country no one has gotten big and rich and famous talking about doing immoral stuff. All the artists that have blown are pretty well rounded characters. There is no path to follow of gangsterism in music that will lead to success. So right now these kids follow a gangster lifestyle to fit in with their peers. It is a culture which is festering on the street, and the music simply reflects the conflicting, hypocritical and often ignorant attitudes of a lot of these kids who need guidance and positive re-inforcement.

And as an aside, violent crime in London is falling at a constant rate, it is simply the collateral damage in the community that is more apparent these days. The problem is being isolated very cleverly by the authorities in impoverished areas where gangs are being pitted against each other so they end up all killing each other off. It's been happening all over Britain since the late 90s. All these people getting shot in clubs aren't random, they are hits made on specific targets, and the cases never get solved because no one will speak up, as they know it is an existing issue between rival criminal factions.

It might be involving frighteningly young males getting shot, but these young males are often the ones doing all the errand work for the bigger men at the top. And the media is careful not to release all of the information.

Logan knows...

well knows a bit lol...nah I'm kidding...spk that s*** man

so Goodz is totally cleared? wonder what'll happen to all those masters for the project done for Polydor?

maybe Crazy will "get knowledge in jail like a lesson in disguise" (c) Talib Kweli - I can seem him coming out all NOI with a beard and that

lets not fool ourselves though - he was slightly screw loose - Sama even you know that

p.s Devilman didn't get murked at all. even if he himself told me Skepta won that I'd tell him NO

Logan Sama said:

Secondly, that article, just like every other one written ties the violence into the music, not the music into the violence.

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this for me hits the nail. violence isnt straightforwardly caused by grime, grime co-exists with the violence in the inner city. theres clearly a debate as to the influence of violent lyrics on kids or whatever, but far far too much emphasis is placed on that as it stands in the media. too much simplistic determinism

@Ned, you may not have a duty to reflect grime in the best possible light, but imo you do take on a responsibility when you write about these things to give a balanced representation which takes all matters into consideration. simplicity can be a very damaging thing. and imo theres not enough respect given to the complexity of the situation

Logos said:

I find it really frustrating equating the Titch verdict to grime in late 06 - when was the last time he made a contribution to the music?

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'Messed Up' with DJ Vader. It came out around the beginning of the year. I thought it was quite good actually.
The funny thing with Crazy Titch, is that for all his reputation of aggressiveness, his lyrics were usually comical and not so much concerned with violence. His biggest tune was probably 'Sing Along' and that was more an anthem for inclusiveness.

elgato said:

@ned, you may not have a duty to reflect grime in the best possible light, but imo you do take on a responsibility when you write about these things to give a balanced representation which takes all matters into consideration. simplicity can be a very damaging thing. and imo theres not enough respect given to the complexity of the situation

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ned's pretty determined to establish he has no responsibility to grime isn't he? ned, i thought 13million people were reading what you wrote? don't you have a responsibility to them?

i think one interesting question is: would you have pitched an article about grime this week if crazy titch had just been cleared of murder and released a brilliant album? if yes (i assume you'd say yes), would the guardian have run it?

i think we all know the answer to that. and that, ned, is the environment you are working in. as someone else rightly said, you are creating mood music for people who absorb generalised impressions of something they probably don't have direct interests in or knowledge of. sitting back and saying 'hey, i just calls em like i sees em' is not good enough.

I really feel stuff like this... its tragic. I know its naive, but I think if you're trying to do something creative like music you're likely to be on a path out of where you came from - or at least you're on the way to finding something really good within your self. And I know it doesn't necessarily take someone out of the poverty trap... but it is *something*. I really believe in art. It makes me sad when people who are trying so hard to express themselves and be creative get sucked back into the hole. Reminds me of that Nelly line...

Greed, hate, envy - what cake will do.
Fuck the game - don't let the game fuck you.

I am not advocating murder.

I am trying to say, without revealing more information than I personally have any right to on an internet forum, that this dispute ended in the violent killing of someone due to circumstances that go WAY past being angry at a lyric on a tune.

And I also believe that lazy reporting and linking the violence to music is helping to stiffle the voice of these young kids who are getting louder and louder who speak out and are making it more and more apparent that there is a serious problem with an entire lost generation who serve no productive role in this society we live in. It is easier to condemn, lock off and sweep under the carpet a problem than to address it. By painting Grime and the people who are involved in it, or people who resemble a stereotypical appearance associated to it, in a bad light, you get a generation of middle Englanders who stop having any interest in helping these youngsters, and just feel animosity, fear and anger towards them. And those emotions have never solved anything.

Logan Sama said:

I am trying to say, without revealing more information than I personally have any right to on an internet forum, that this dispute ended in the violent killing of someone due to circumstances that go WAY past being angry at a lyric on a tune.

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Who then does have the right to reveal information ? Does this mean you are governed by the grime code of silence as well ? Can we expect a sell off of the story to a mag as a more legitimate revelation of information given that an internet forum is just as much about disseminating personal propaganda as media tidbits as any glossy mag or sunday paper.

Surely this is one case where the violence was directly attributable to the music and the culture. Isn't violence entrenched in grime in that you cant have one without the other ?

If it feels better, create a new identity just for the purpose of spitting it out

mos dan said:

you are creating mood music for people who absorb generalised impressions of something they probably don't have direct interests in or knowledge of.

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Yes, because 99% of people are drones, and only Dissensus users are intellectually capable of combining multiple sources of complex information without their minds exploding. Better to eradicate nuance in case one of these sheep gets the wrong idea and refuses to buy Wiley's next album because he thinks it will lead to him getting mugged.

Would you also prefer that journalists didn't even report on Crazy Titch's conviction because that, too, could potentially hurt grime's prospects?