The Unions

sufi

lala
this made me laugh!
Over at Unison headquarters, Anita Edwards, team leader in the West Midlands equal pay unit, is making coffee in the break-out area. "Real coffee beans," she says with a smile. "Macchiato or cappuccino?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/may/01/stefan-cross-female-pay-birmingham

amusing piece on an interesting case, which illustrates some of the reasons why the unions still seem to be losing ground after 13 years of labour...

what's your experience of the union?
mine's certainly more along the lines of this article than the traditional 'down tools all out' approach
 

sufi

lala
!!Ka-bump!!

remember, you may think that tube drivers are overpaid, but

this strike is about safety -
- cutting staff at stations by 800 & 7500 hours of opening times
- reducing the amount of maintenance checks from bi-weekly to 4 weeks
not about pay

the tories accusing rmt of political opportunism, but i'm kinda surprised (disappointed perhaps) that they havent fucked with that fat prick boris more up til now actually...
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
remember, you may think that tube drivers are overpaid, but

this strike is about safety -
- cutting staff at stations by 800 & 7500 hours of opening times
- reducing the amount of maintenance checks from bi-weekly to 4 weeks
not about pay

the tories accusing rmt of political opportunism, but i'm kinda surprised (disappointed perhaps) that they havent fucked with that fat prick boris more up til now actually...

the Tories accusing RMT of political opportunism is like being lectured by Wayne Rooney on marital fidelity.

deeply heartened by John and Sufi's words on this topic.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If it's legit safety concerns then obviously that's different from a standard salary gripe or a strike over someone getting sacked. I think what wound me up the most in the other thread was massrock's rather flippant "is £40,000 really that much money?" - um, yes. Yes, it is.
 

massrock

Well-known member
What's flippant?

What is your basis for saying £40,000 'is a lot' of money? By what measure? Do you think it's too much? Compared to what, how much you or others might get paid? Why do you need to make this comparison? Out of a sense of 'fairness' perhaps? Or envy?

Maybe you think the tube workers should get less so that others who get a share of the same allocated pool of tokens can have more. Perhaps, but does it really work that way? I think you need to put that in a larger context and decide if the basis for the 'economy' is 'fair'. Where does the money come from, how is it allocated, where does most of it go? Where does most of it go after it's been paid to the workers? What are the mechanisms involved?

So it's a relatively decent wage, but in the context of a shitty system and all sorts of 'unfairness'. Aren't you just buying into this then and misdirecting your resentment? Crabs and barrels. Fuck it, let them get what they can, within reason, it's never going to be that much. And the main thing to realise is they're not taking anything away from you or others compared to the colossal amounts of wealth being extracted and hoarded by the actual cunts are they? You're on the same side you know.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What's flippant?

What is your basis for saying £40,000 'is a lot' of money? By what measure? Do you think it's too much? Compared to what, how much you or others might get paid? Why do you need to make this comparison? Out of a sense of 'fairness' perhaps? Or envy?

Well over a billion people in the world live on less than 1% of that. How's that for "absolute terms"?

Maybe you think the tube workers should get less so that others who get a share of the same allocated pool of tokens can have more. Perhaps, but does it really work that way?

Presumably the high wages paid to tube drivers are one of the reasons it's so expensive to use. Am I missing something here? It's pretty straightforward, isn't it?

I think you need to put that in a larger context and decide if the basis for the 'economy' is 'fair'. Where does the money come from, how is it allocated, where does most of it go? Where does most of it go after it's been paid to the workers? What are the mechanisms involved?

So it's a relatively decent wage, but in the context of a shitty system and all sorts of 'unfairness'. Aren't you just buying into this then and misdirecting your resentment? Crabs and barrels. Fuck it, let them get what they can, within reason, it's never going to be that much. And the main thing to realise is they're not taking anything away from you or others compared to the colossal amounts of wealth being extracted and hoarded by the actual cunts are they? You're on the same side you know.

But that's all a much, much larger question, isn't it? If you're asking me to suggest how we go about restructuring the entire economy to make it "fairer", by whatever standards you consider fair, I'm afraid I'm not qualified to do that. Neither, I suspect, is any one person.

Who are these "actual cunts" - do you mean the directors of the companies involved in the PPP and their shareholders? It'd be interesting to see how much of the tenner you put on your Oyster card goes to them rather than paying for the operating costs of the network. I don't mean to say I think it would be an insignificant amount, because I really have idea of how it breaks down - but it would be interesting to compare.
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
Presumably the high wages paid to tube drivers are one of the reasons it's so expensive to use. Am I missing something here? It's pretty straightforward, isn't it?

The RMT had argued consistently for a reduction in fares and has been opposed to there being a differential for people who don't have oyster cards.

But that's all a much, much larger question, isn't it? If you're asking me to suggest how we go about restructuring the entire economy to make it "fairer", by whatever standards you consider fair, I'm afraid I'm not qualified to do that. Neither, I suspect, is any one person.

Maybe one model would be for a bunch of people to band together to try and

a) reduce inequality
b) increase their own working conditions
c) discuss how to make things fairer for workers everywhere

now, what would be a good name for that?
 

massrock

Well-known member
Well over a billion people in the world live on less than 1% of that. How's that for "absolute terms"?
Yes absolutely, or less. Why is that though? Is reducing wages in the developed world the answer? It's also not a direct comparison as a monetary figure is not an absolute measure of wealth or even purchasing power. It's dependent on other conditions of course, but yes it is a huge amount compared with how much money the vast majority of humans have. Does that mean it's actually an unreasonable figure to expect?

Who are these "actual cunts" - do you mean the directors of the companies involved in the PPP and their shareholders? It'd be interesting to see how much of the tenner you put on your Oyster card goes to them rather than paying for the operating costs of the network. I don't mean to say I think it would be an insignificant amount, because I really have idea of how it breaks down - but it would be interesting to compare.
Well maybe, and it would be interesting to see, but I mean as compared to the amount of value extracted from the economy by people and organisations that profit from war, manipulate markets and economic systems, exploit conditions of poverty in other countries etc. Pretty sure the London Underground payroll hardly compares. What I mean is there are much bigger targets if you want to complain about greed and what goes on at those levels actually does have an effect on not only third world poverty but the cost of public transport here as well. Suspect there are many other factors that affect fares too, and that there ways in which fares could be reduced if that's your concern. I dunno, but I don't think it's simply a straight equation with pay.
 
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massrock

Well-known member
So it's perceived effect on fare prices when they see what tube workers are paid that bothers people then?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well maybe, and it would be interesting to see, but I mean as compared to the amount of value extracted from the economy by people and organisations that profit from war, manipulate markets and economic systems, exploit conditions of poverty in other countries etc. Pretty sure the London Underground payroll hardly compares.

Obviously those are all bad things, but the fact that a bigger problem exists elsewhere does not mean that a smaller problem closer to home doesn't matter. You can't just say "What about war? What about starving Africans?" every time someone brings up some domestic political issue. Well of course you can, but it's not very constructive.

So it's perceived effect on fare prices when they see what tube workers are paid that bothers people then?

As you say, it's probably not a 'straight equation', but the two are surely not uncorrelated.

But this is kind of by-the-bye as the recent strike wasn't over wages in any case. I'm not against people making a decent living, just saying that it's understandable that there isn't widespread public support for Tube strikes given (amongst other things) the cost of travelling on it.
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
It took me a while to get my head round this, but public support isn't actually the issue.

The negotiation is between the union and management.

The inconvenience caused to the public is a bargaining tool which emphasises the importance of the work being done and the gravity of the situation (nobody goes on strike lightly, despite what "common sense" and the media tell you).

In this negotiation, the function of the RMT is to get the best deal for its members and to defend their working conditions. The function of managment is to generate as much profit as possible.

There is a role for PR in there, for sure - there was massive public support for the ambulance drivers when they went out on strike in the late eighties/early nineties and more recently the fire brigade had a much more mixed reaction than the tube drivers.

Public support obviously helps management look like tools but ultimately neither they nor the union is out to make friends.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Coming at it from another angle - the media in this country is unbelievably hostile to unions. They are hardly ever given free reign to state their case (how many people think the recent strike is about wages?).

Even if the RMT did want to embark on a PR campaign they would need to plough huge resources into it - resources which could be spent defending their members interests.

And they'd be heavily criticised for paying hundreds of thousands of pounds to PR agencies (everyone knows what Bob Crow earns, AND IT'S A SCANDAL! Who even knows who the heads of LRT are, and what they earn?)
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
Mike Brown, Managing Director, London Underground (pay: £289,000)

An actual cunt
 

Kate Mossad

Well-known member
If you're lucky enough to be in a job where you can join a union you'd be a fool not to quite frankly. The first thing in did in my present job was pick up a security pass, the second was find out the name of my union rep.

"United we stand, divided we're lumbered." As Harry Flowers so eloquently put it in the film Performance.
 
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