sufi

lala
& I'm fully in support of standing up against American white supremacists, which Trump and the Trumpites exemplify. I hope that goes without saying.
But he's not a clown, and it's not a cartoon.
 

droid

Well-known member
Cripes, sorry, popped out for a mo after posting that.
All I'm saying is that they are not crazed rabid evil beasts, there are clever people involved who believe that they are rational and ethical. Trump is not Satan just as Obama was not actually Jesus. A bit of cool analysis of what just happened is more helpful than frothing at the gash.

Who claimed Obama was jesus?

Have you actually read anything about his cabinet picks? Tillerson was complicit in what has been described as perhaps 'the most evil corporate act in history'. Pence favours electro-shock therapy for gays. Betsy DeVos wants to defund public education, Tom Price is an anti-vaxxer and Wakefield has been consulted on health policy, Scott Pruitt is a climate denier and Koch brothers proxy, Jeffrey Sessions is an avowed racist who wants to rollback civil rights for blacks. Virtually every single one of them is like some kind of hyper-Cheney.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
yes, i do.

there is no parallel between a seventeen-year military regime led by an unelected dictator and a democratically elected president in a country with a free judiciary and separation of powers. there is no parallel between locking up political opponents, torturing and disappearing people and stifling legitimate opposition and trump, who has threatened none of those things.

I posted this on the other thread, but in response to your comment:

"Trump's threatened to imprison political opponents, offered to pay legal fees for violent supporters, seemingly asked supporters to murder anyone trying to 'take away' guns, threatened to restrict press freedoms, proposed restrictions on religious freedom, jail people for flag burning (protected under the 1st amendment) and asked for political opponents to be hacked. Maybe these things were said in jest or for rhetorical effect, but these are not the actions and opinions of a president in a healthy democracy."

Someone doesn't have to be Pinochet for them to undermine democracy and for it not to function properly.
 

droid

Well-known member
its a red herring anyway. Trump didnt seize power. Authoritarianism from the ballot box is different than a brutal military coup. If it goes that way it will be an Erdogan style process. Stirring up nationalist and patriotic fever, planned provocations, state of emergency, suspension of democratic norms, then comes the mass imprisonments and torture (which he advocates of course).
 

droid

Well-known member
Which is why its so worrying that its being tipped over the edge by erosion of some fundamental conventions.
 

droid

Well-known member
if anything he has more than earned his win by undoing the trans pacific partnership, a secretive, corporate-backed takeover of media, pharmaceuticals and more that would have killed net neutrality and put affordable generic drugs off the shelf, to name two things that would have impacted chile. it remains to be seen how he governs, however the idea that trump is in any way comparable to pinochet is absurd and frankly insulting.

Oh - and just to point out TTIP was killed by EU activism prior to Trump's declaration.
 

vimothy

yurp
Not that Trump is particularly a threat to democracy, so much as an unfortunate and rather embarrassing expression of it. If anything he's a threat to liberal norms that constrain democracy.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Not that Trump is particularly a threat to democracy, so much as an unfortunate and rather embarrassing expression of it. If anything he's a threat to liberal norms that constrain democracy.

Liberal norms constrain democracy only if you define democracy as mob rule in which human rights are disregarded.
 

bruno

est malade
I posted this on the other thread, but in response to your comment:

"Trump's threatened to imprison political opponents, offered to pay legal fees for violent supporters, seemingly asked supporters to murder anyone trying to 'take away' guns, threatened to restrict press freedoms, proposed restrictions on religious freedom, jail people for flag burning (protected under the 1st amendment) and asked for political opponents to be hacked. Maybe these things were said in jest or for rhetorical effect, but these are not the actions and opinions of a president in a healthy democracy."

Someone doesn't have to be Pinochet for them to undermine democracy and for it not to function properly.
i addressed these points in the other thread. of course it's not necessary to have a dictatorship to undermine freedoms, american democracy is proof that a system can be co-opted and become undemocratic in subtle ways while maintaining the title. having said this, i think anyone with a taste of real authoritarian/repressive government will tell you that the american system, while far from perfect, is infinitely preferable.
 

bruno

est malade
Oh - and just to point out TTIP was killed by EU activism prior to Trump's declaration.
perhaps, but you have to give him credit for being all-out against it from the start. which is why all the major corporations and banks were behind hillary, not trump.
 

vimothy

yurp
I define democracy as a system in which the people select their own government. In the absence of any qualifications it implies majority rule.
 

droid

Well-known member
LIke I said months ago. Perhaps he's not a fascist. Perhaps he was just pretending to be a fascist to get elected.
 

droid

Well-known member
I watched most of Trump's stump speeches, and if you could ignore the racism, misogyny, incitement to violence, frighteningly cavalier attitude towards nuclear weapons, hatred of the press and climate denial - sure, you could see some populist anti-globalisation rhetoric that made some sense.

This has all been belied by his choice of cabinet and his words and actions post election.
 
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