good question. what is there actually to counter in the 2010s on the cultural plane? opposition to capitalism can hardly be a matter of cultural aesthetics, otherwise islamists would have dragged turkey back to feudalism, which is of course nonsense as they are just as implicated in running a capitalist economy...
Is a counterculture still possible?
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good question. what is there actually to counter in the 2010s on the cultural plane? opposition to capitalism can hardly be a matter of cultural aesthetics, otherwise islamists would have dragged turkey back to feudalism, which is of course nonsense as they are just as implicated in running a capitalist economy...
everything is so fragmented now. you can be a gay or queer white nationalist, a black hotep/nation of islam type preaching revolutionary solidarity, a kurd defending the turkish state. there is nothing to rebel against not because what Nagle says is right, the left did not really win on the cultural plane - I actually agree with Matthew on this, but because the counter-culture of the 60s as unbridled commodity consumerism and privatised libertarianism actually won.
chava
Well-known member
Of course the Left won culturally, so it's correct that 4chan trolls is what left of counterculture.
Music or art wise, always, always rely on a day job. This the safest way to 'counter' something, put your work out of the product loop. Although how to be a part of a defined counterculture is another matter.
Music or art wise, always, always rely on a day job. This the safest way to 'counter' something, put your work out of the product loop. Although how to be a part of a defined counterculture is another matter.
true. avant-prole aesthetics were never really counter-cultures. snort speed to get through the day to gob more pills at the weekend.
I mean I just find this hard to believe because after WW II the left became more and more capitalist, not less. so in that sense yeah they won. but then they won on the terms of the libertarian right (which is by no means socially conservative) paul staines talking about his acid house parties being Thatcher on drugs...
To go back to the opening question for a moment - what about the Arab Spring? Large scale movements for social reform, explicitly political - actual rebellion rather than the symbolic trappings of the same that characterise Western youth cultures, driven by new technology. Young people absolutely in the front line. I don't know enough about it in its entirety but I think it's an interesting comparison.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
these are good questions
I will think on them and see what I come up with
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
but disagree 100% that "the cultural left won". or rather it is more complicated.
it absolutely did in terms of identity, but it was at the same time it lost even more devastatingly and/or was totally coopted on economic organization.
we all have the right to be the kind of consumers we want to be, and have our culture commodified and sold back to us.
this is still a massive simplification, but it's far beyond the ken of a message board post tbf. this the kind of the thing people write dissertations and books on.
one thing I do wonder about, without answers, is the interplay of cultural and economic, and other historical factors.
it absolutely did in terms of identity, but it was at the same time it lost even more devastatingly and/or was totally coopted on economic organization.
we all have the right to be the kind of consumers we want to be, and have our culture commodified and sold back to us.
this is still a massive simplification, but it's far beyond the ken of a message board post tbf. this the kind of the thing people write dissertations and books on.
one thing I do wonder about, without answers, is the interplay of cultural and economic, and other historical factors.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that's why I keep going on about on imagination
people were/are able to be envision a world beyond/without discrimination based on race, sexuality, etc as an ideal to strive toward
does anyone envision a world - realistically - outside the commodity and resulting social relations?
I say this as a person who came of age immersed in anarchist conceptions of freely associating mutual aid etc
here is where John Eden might say - rightly - that the best thing to do is live closest to the ideal way you'd like things to be as you can
(not to put words in your mouth, John, I just feel like you'd chime in with typical sense if you posted something here)
which is valid, but not the same as being able to envision a different world entirely
people were/are able to be envision a world beyond/without discrimination based on race, sexuality, etc as an ideal to strive toward
does anyone envision a world - realistically - outside the commodity and resulting social relations?
I say this as a person who came of age immersed in anarchist conceptions of freely associating mutual aid etc
here is where John Eden might say - rightly - that the best thing to do is live closest to the ideal way you'd like things to be as you can
(not to put words in your mouth, John, I just feel like you'd chime in with typical sense if you posted something here)
which is valid, but not the same as being able to envision a different world entirely
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Leguin is the best and most thorough thought experiment in this direction that I know of
and it is a wonderful book, but she still had to use science fiction to get there
and it is a wonderful book, but she still had to use science fiction to get there
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
anyway, I'll think on those questions
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
third, or maybe others, can definitely give a better technical answer, so feel to correct me, but
it's any product - good or service - produced by human effort, which is then sold in a market
a commodity has both use value, which is intrinsic (i.e. a jacket keeps one warm), and exchange value (what it can be traded for)
money is then a further abstraction of exchange value, instead of just exchanging products directly (barter)
it's any product - good or service - produced by human effort, which is then sold in a market
a commodity has both use value, which is intrinsic (i.e. a jacket keeps one warm), and exchange value (what it can be traded for)
money is then a further abstraction of exchange value, instead of just exchanging products directly (barter)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
here I mean the difficulty of envisioning a world where any cultural expression isn't ultimately a commodity, whether or not its creator intends to be
if you don't monetize it, someone else will, if it's worth monetizing
and all that results in terms of economic + social organization (which I couldn't even begin to explain in detail, but you get my gist)
if you don't monetize it, someone else will, if it's worth monetizing
and all that results in terms of economic + social organization (which I couldn't even begin to explain in detail, but you get my gist)
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I'm not sure?
money is as noted not the thing itself, but a medium of exchange.
money is among other things lubrication for markets. it makes trade more efficient but it isn't necessary (i.e., direct barter).
I do know that human civilization as presently - and always, to my understanding - constituted absolutely couldn't function without credit, and therefore money, and someone to extend credit
(meaning civilization as starting with sedentary agriculture, cities, specialization of labor, etc)
I don't know if that's the same thing as what you're saying. I don't think so? we're running up against the limits of my economic knowledge.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
there's a lot of directions this could go in, and some of them relate to perspectives on human nature
i.e. what do people desire? given a blank slate will they always find a way to make things and sell them to each other?
I certainly don't have answers here
on an interesting related note, I'm rereading The Republic right now
the way Plato frames his question is to have a sophist claim that justice is merely the advantage of those who rule, with everyone else indoctrinated to believe that that is justice (I'm simplifying obv)
it really resonated with me, having watched in practice the white working class in this country consistently advocate and vote against their/our own interests
anyway, it brings up questions of how one can trust one's own beliefs, worldview, etc
i.e. what do people desire? given a blank slate will they always find a way to make things and sell them to each other?
I certainly don't have answers here
on an interesting related note, I'm rereading The Republic right now
the way Plato frames his question is to have a sophist claim that justice is merely the advantage of those who rule, with everyone else indoctrinated to believe that that is justice (I'm simplifying obv)
it really resonated with me, having watched in practice the white working class in this country consistently advocate and vote against their/our own interests
anyway, it brings up questions of how one can trust one's own beliefs, worldview, etc