The Event : How Racist Are You?

grizzleb

Well-known member
I have noticed (and this is just an anecdote) that some British people seem to have a strong, visceral response against psychology and analysis. Some Americans do, too, of course.

But I think this comes from the mistaken belief that repressing bad/negative/difficult feelings is better than processing them. This is a very unhealthy attitude, according to most psycho-medical models.
I guess you are right, I'm probably more interested in psychoanalysis than psychological experiments than anything.

I've got a psychology lecturer in the course I'm doing just now and he acts really over the top aggressive with me and everyone else in the class, with the belief that because this gets his class good marks that it's worthwhile. I'm just not comfortable with forcing yourself to be aggressive and justifying it with the belief that you are doing it 'for the greater good'.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Yeah, my rape comment was probably not the wisest. I didn't watch the whole of this btw, I turned it off after the first half. I dunno, obviously racism still goes on but there's a problem (for people of ethnic minority) in that you can turn any situation that involves someone behaving negatively towards you and explain it in terms of racism - whereas white people can't explain it in those terms. People are commonly dicks to each other, race or not. What I'm not saying here is that people aren't commonly the victim of prejudice, but that there's an inherent bias in how people of a black, asian etc background classify their own negative encounters with others.

I guess I'm fighting a losing battle here in that it would be stupid to say that exposing this isn't a good idea - the methods behind it didn't seem to show that it's ideals fully matched up with the practise. "Do you know how to behave white?" "Of course I do" hmmm...

Oh, I don't know. I've lived in predominantly black and hispanic neighborhoods. I've experienced race-based conflict. I was told once by a black woman that she was going to shoot me on a crowded subway train. There was me and one other Jewish lady, the only whites, and of course, it was our fault that some guy stepped on her foot. I don't really blame her, though--there was a lot of racial tension as a result of gentrification of the neighborhood, Jewish landlords were being blamed for steep rents, it was a week before Christmas, we were visibly professionals and she wasn't, etc.

These "racial" conflicts are all pretty deeply class encoded.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
The video link didn't work for me, but I've seen similar experiments before.

I guess you are right, I'm probably more interested in psychoanalysis than psychological experiments than anything.

I've got a psychology lecturer in the course I'm doing just now and he acts really over the top aggressive with me and everyone else in the class, with the belief that because this gets his class good marks that it's worthwhile. I'm just not comfortable with forcing yourself to be aggressive and justifying it with the belief that you are doing it 'for the greater good'.

Hmm...well, who knows? Maybe he has found that this is the only way he gets through to his students. I know some professors swear, some tell personal stories, some tell jokes, just to keep students engaged.

People have different thresholds for what's perceived as "aggressive" behavior, as well.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Yeah I think this is why he does it - he's called me an ugly fat bastard in class which I found pretty offensive, I guess I question whether the result of slightly better marks for the class is worth the actual act.

And yeah, it's hugely a class thing. I think in the US it would be much more obvious that there was racial tension. Anyway I'm going for some tea.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Yeah I think this is why he does it - he's called me an ugly fat bastard in class which I found pretty offensive, I guess I question whether the result of slightly better marks for the class is worth the actual act.

And yeah, it's hugely a class thing. I think in the US it would be much more obvious that there was racial tension. Anyway I'm going for some tea.

Oh, well, namecalling isn't very professional.

I'd probably talk to the dean about that. Or at least go to him and confront him. Which is probably what he's trying to get you to do.

I would've said "suck my dick" the first time he said that and walked out probably. Y'all are too polite.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
I'm not even fat either! haha

It's precisely the idea that I think some psychologists have that 'trying to get a response' from people is OK, just because you have some "special" insight into how people work and will react. Like people are just some input output machine and they have the power to make you a better person... I think this is an abuse of power and unneccessary.

I didn't really do anything in response btw, more trouble than it's worth most likely.
 

don_quixote

Trent End
as a teacher ive found that if i shout at the kids they tend to shout twice as hard back.

doesn't stop you doing it now and then...
 

massrock

Well-known member
She seemed to lose the thread a bit of where the exercise was supposed to be going I thought. I guess she usually wings it to a large extent, a lack of understanding of how race and class issues operate in the UK can't have helped with that.

It did seem kind of ill defined as to whether people were supposed to be aware that they were playing roles or not. I thought it was going to be a bit more like a Stanford prison experiment type thing - set up a power structure along arbitrary lines and encourage participants to treat it as real. See how it becomes real and roles emerge...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
She seemed to lose the thread a bit of where the exercise was supposed to be going I thought. I guess she usually wings it to a large extent, a lack of understanding of how race and class issues operate in the UK can't have helped with that.

It did seem kind of ill defined as to whether people were supposed to be aware that they were playing roles or not. I thought it was going to be a bit more like a Stanford prison experiment type thing - set up a power structure along arbitrary lines and encourage participants to treat it as real. See how it becomes real and roles emerge...

I wish I could watch it and see, but is the moderator supposed to be "guiding" the experiment? Usually they're not supposed to, unless it's a role play...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I'm not even fat either! haha

It's precisely the idea that I think some psychologists have that 'trying to get a response' from people is OK, just because you have some "special" insight into how people work and will react. Like people are just some input output machine and they have the power to make you a better person... I think this is an abuse of power and unneccessary.

I didn't really do anything in response btw, more trouble than it's worth most likely.

Honestly, I have never noticed this, and I've known a fair share of psychologists. I think this teacher might just be a little over-earnest and trying too hard to make some kind of point to the class in a "performative" way. Teaching is different from practicing, too.
 

massrock

Well-known member
that twat at the start. boy... i think from this programme i am learning yet again that i hate all white people.
The white studenty lad? I dunno, I mean twat or not I thought he was justified in refusing to act in bad faith. Actively bullying the 'brown eyes' into treating the 'blue eyes' negatively seemed really ill conceived and poor practice. She was insisting people go along with a negative portrayal of 'the blue eyes' but without making it clear whether this was role play or not.

Grizz - the guy who said he did know how to "behave white" later explained that he has a largely white family background.

Also the sandwiches didn't look that bad and what's so good about buffet anyway?
 

credit crunch

_________
more trewly ridiculous tele from channel 4:(

The methods used by that that little sex starved Hitler proved absolutely nothing. No room for debate or considered discussion. The only purpose of that exercise was to feed her needy ego and get the attention she so craves, through another example of American human bear baiting techniques tarted up as a 'radical new approach in modern psychology' :( Any attempt to question said technique was then immediately dismissed with the water-tight 'latent racist' accusation!

Every one knows that such aggressive tactics used by legions of teachers never gets any rewards from kids let alone adults. A good show would be interviews from her ex-pupils to see how good a teacher she was.

Loved her statement at the end about how anyone who went to high school must be racist..............what a sweeping generalisation by a classic example of the kind of bullying, omnipotent c**t that the teaching profession unfortunately attracts in their droves:(

But sure it got the ratings up and the interwebs talkin and thats whats really important:mad:
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
It's a loaded question though, whether or not he does 'know'. Surely it implies that there is a 'white' way that white people behave, and it reinforces the idea that there is some difference there between us. Or that white people deserve abuse because they have 'had it easy'. Making people feel like they always have a right to feel the victim (because you are this) enforces the idea that victimhood is the appropriate response in that situation. And victimhood is only one step away from bitterness, etc etc. Scapegoatism in reverse, and it's acceptable because who would question that racism is a bad thing? And she gets an ego boost because "I'm a white woman taking a stand on behalf of all these black people". Major point-scoring.
 

massrock

Well-known member
I wish I could watch it and see, but is the moderator supposed to be "guiding" the experiment? Usually they're not supposed to, unless it's a role play...
I don't know what it was supposed to be and I don't think the participants did either really. It was apparently largely about her "guiding" the exercise towards an end. Other than that the parameters didn't seem well defined at all. The result was that people on both sides were questioning the basis of what they were supposed to be doing. I don't think most psychologists would describe this as a well designed exercise. It might work in a specific context but it's not water tight enough to translate into a different situation. Some interesting stuff did come up but I think even the psychologists they had commentating were having trouble justifying where she was going with it. I guess it's intended as a demonstration more than anything but it was kind of scatter-shot - set up an awkward situation, treat people badly...
 
Last edited:

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
more trewly ridiculous tele from channel 4:(

The methods used by that that little sex starved Hitler proved absolutely nothing. No room for debate or considered discussion. The only purpose of that exercise was to feed her needy ego and get the attention she so craves, through another example of American human bear baiting techniques tarted up as a 'radical new approach in modern psychology' :( Any attempt to question said technique was then immediately dismissed with the water-tight 'latent racist' accusation!

Every one knows that such aggressive tactics used by legions of teachers never gets any rewards from kids let alone adults. A good show would be interviews from her ex-pupils to see how good a teacher she was.

Loved her statement at the end about how anyone who went to high school must be racist..............what a sweeping generalisation by a classic example of the kind of bullying, omnipotent c**t that the teaching profession unfortunately attracts in their droves:(

But sure it got the ratings up and the interwebs talkin and thats whats really important:mad:

Yikes.

(Sex-starved?? Hitler? "needy" "attention" she so desperately "craves" "tarted up"...)

Project much, do we? Would you like some misogyny with your racism?

Was the experiment guide a teacher? I'm confused now.

Edit: By the way, we're all racists. In case you hadn't heard.
 
Last edited:

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
It's a loaded question though, whether or not he does 'know'. Surely it implies that there is a 'white' way that white people behave, and it reinforces the idea that there is some difference there between us. Or that white people deserve abuse because they have 'had it easy'. Making people feel like they always have a right to feel the victim (because you are this) enforces the idea that victimhood is the appropriate response in that situation. And victimhood is only one step away from bitterness, etc etc. Scapegoatism in reverse, and it's acceptable because who would question that racism is a bad thing? And she gets an ego boost because "I'm a white woman taking a stand on behalf of all these black people". Major point-scoring.

You are getting back into "reverse racism" territory again. Racism doesn't work in reverse. Racism works in every direction, all the time.

Some people are victims of an unjust system. There is nothing wrong with working through the affects this produces in people.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
You are getting back into "reverse racism" territory again. Racism doesn't work in reverse. Racism works in every direction, all the time.

Some people are victims of an unjust system. There is nothing wrong with working through the affects this produces in people.
I guess that's why I feel silly saying it, and I don't want my point to be simply that it's 'reverse racism', cause that's a bit daft isn't it.
I just wonder if it's always correct to 'expose' latent racism in people, many of whom probably have never done anything racist in their life (just seen your edit - yeah of course we are all racist to some degree). What is the appropriate way of dealing with racism? Who has a right to feel victim? Are you always a victim simply because you are black? Are all the bad things that happen to you evidence of a system built with the odds stacked against you? I'm not saying I have the answers. I guess most of the both groups would have came away from that feeling more angry and more defined simply by their race than before.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I haven't seen the video, so I can't really comment on that specific experiment, but I think it's a good thing to get people to switch roles and see maybe how it feels to be on the other end. I think it's a good thing for people to be jolted out of their "polite" mechanical reactions to conventional behaviors, at times.

The problem is that people think "racism" has to mean an outwardly aggressive act, or inwardly hateful feeling against someone--that you aren't a racist if you don't actively feel hatred toward people of other races. The problem with this is that racism is institutionalized, it's built into the economic, social, and political structures we live in, and so it's unavoidable. We participate in it all the time without even having to act at all, or feel genuine "hate."

Here's an interesting youtube video along these lines:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
 
Last edited:

grizzleb

Well-known member
I haven't seen the video, so I can't really comment on that specific experiment, I think it's a good thing to get people to switch roles and see maybe how it feels to be on the other end.

The problem is that people think "racism" has to mean an active, hateful act against someone--that you aren't a racist if you don't actively feel hatred toward people of other races. The problem is that racism is institutionalized, it's built into the economic, social, and political structures we live in, and so it's unavoidable. We participate in it all the time without even having to "act" or feel "hate."
Yeah I totally agree - maybe my point is that these kind of experiments only deal with it on a 'subjective/active' etc basis. They do nothing to deal with it as an institutional problem... So people are made to experience what it is like to be a victim of hate (which they have not actively participated in), but not any wider social construct (which they have). The way people are divided is as arbitrary (eye colour not skin) but the system in this case is not - it's one which focuses on degrading invididuals, as well as face to face tension. So the participants mistake the two different things for each other...If these experiments gained us any insight into how they work without the element of active hatred then maybe I wouldn't be so repulsed by it.

I can't get your video to work, will swatch later.
 
Top