Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
scottish independence is a fundamentally right-wing movement - just one which has a misleading socialist wrapper at the moment.

Aww c'mon, there's no reason you can't be both a nationalist and a socialist. Hell, you could even call yourself a 'national-socialist'! I think it has quite a nice ring to it, actually.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I'm not unsympathetic to Matt's view, as anybody could guess, but don't know enough about the origins of the SNP to back it up. There's certainly an element of that with Plaid, and Lianne Wood (who I like, but consider an ambitious Labour apostate rather than a real nationalist) is certainly deploying the populist Salmond template.

But these are essentially nationalist parties and can contain a broad coalition of left and right in their body. There are many Plaid members who distrust Lianne's left agenda and don't like the fact that they have a non-Welsh speaking leader - what is Welsh nationalism about other than language rights? There are even some fringe Welsh nationalists who would consider defecting to UKIP, which is hilarious.

Of all the parties, apart from the fascists and racists and some of the more extreme Communist and Trot sects, I like the nationalists the least.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
In Wales we all tend to shorten the title Plaid Cymru to Plaid, which they love because it means 'The Party'.

Sinister fuckers.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But let's get down to the real question: will the SNP ever be run by someone who isn't named after a fish? I mean, is it even allowed?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

Why wasn't the Remain campaign shouting this from the rooftops? It's probably the best pro-immigration argument there is, at least in terms of immigration from the EU. Without immigrants both to fund the NHS and staff it, the system's at risk of collapse under the weight of bed-bound biddies.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Why wasn't the Remain campaign shouting this from the rooftops? It's probably the best pro-immigration argument there is, at least in terms of immigration from the EU. Without immigrants both to fund the NHS and staff it, the system's at risk of collapse under the weight of bed-bound biddies.

Cameron and Osborne couldn't say "immigration's not the problem, austerity is" because they were responsible for austerity. Corbyn, whether out of Bennite euroscepticism or incompetence, wasn't willing or able to pick up the slack.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I meant the Labour side of the campaign, yes - such as it was - plus whatever centrist Tories may have had the balls to put pressure on the government from the left/centre in the same way the party's lunatic fringe did from the right.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Not really sure which thread to put this in, but:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-family-stands-to-lose-50k-under-benefit-cuts

This case - aside from being horrendous at a human level - is an interesting one for the father's lifelong devotion to voting Tory ("I felt utterly let down"), and the general sense from both parents that 'we never believed this could happen to us'. Whereas of course, he or they were quite happy for similar devastation to happen to people poorer and more disposable than they felt themselves to be.

Interesting to know how other middle class Tory voters view the predicament of this family and similar cases i.e. people that they might relate to at some level, not just dismiss as the 'undeserving poor'.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
("I felt utterly let down"), and the general sense from both parents that 'we never believed this could happen to us'.

Or, as I've seen it succinctly put:

never-thought-leopards-would-eat-my-face-sobs-woman-who-7081756.png
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
"A low-income single parent with a baby, earning £17,300 a year, will be £530 worse off, losing £610 from benefit cuts while gaining £80 from tax cuts.

• A middle-income working couple earning £33,500 a year, with three children including a baby, will be £2,500 worse off overall, losing £2,700 from benefit cuts while gaining £160 from tax cuts.

• A high-income couple with two children, earning £100,000 a year, will be £480 better off, with no benefit losses and all gains stemming from tax cuts."

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hit-george-osborne-tax-benefit-budget-changes

C8aFHYxWsAAvIIv.jpg
 

firefinga

Well-known member
Not really sure which thread to put this in, but:

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-family-stands-to-lose-50k-under-benefit-cuts

This case - aside from being horrendous at a human level - is an interesting one for the father's lifelong devotion to voting Tory ("I felt utterly let down"), and the general sense from both parents that 'we never believed this could happen to us'. Whereas of course, he or they were quite happy for similar devastation to happen to people poorer and more disposable than they felt themselves to be.

Interesting to know how other middle class Tory voters view the predicament of this family and similar cases i.e. people that they might relate to at some level, not just dismiss as the 'undeserving poor'.

It's just that those people then will very likely vote for the radical right in the next election.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I don't know...maybe, but there's also a possibility that the mood is right for a resurgence of a party like the Lib Dems in the UK, as an outlet for people allergic to socialist ideas but disgusted by the depth of the neoliberal-inspired cuts. Especially if their views coincide on Brexit (i.e. those middle class people sympathetic to Remain).
You're probably right though, because I'm making the mistake of attributing some kind of rationality to people's voting intentions.

Did even some Conservative MPs express disgust at the most recent cuts, or was that my imagination?
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What I want to know is, where's the party for people who are actually fairly amenable to socialist ideas but who also look for something in a leader other than impotent purity?
 

firefinga

Well-known member
Yes, there seems to be a (minor) trend of late that the neoliberal gospel isn't sacrosanct any longer and it's beeing critisized by a few conservative politicians/commentators lately. It's hardly bc of a deeper understanding how toxic that gospel is for society/environment etc - the thing which was called once "the common good".

I rather have the impression that finally the pyramide sheme that neoliberal policies are (cuts of taxes/benefits for the "undeserving" etc in order to secure the 10%+ profit rates for the 5% of the really rich) isn't working any longer since unemployment is deeply creeping into the middle classes these days. More and more people who (believed they) were always playing by the rules are getting thrown under the bus by those who promoted those rules.
 
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