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Thread: Anthony "Shake" Shakir - "All we did was put a black face on it"

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
    FWIW Giorgio Moroder claims that he started using four on the floor beats after hearing a German oompah band at a wedding. IIRC he claims that he'd been trying to figure out how to get european kids dancing to black american sounds when they couldn't get their head around the beats, and suddenly realized that if german grannies could get down to a big bass drum going oonce oonce oonce oonce then european discos would go mad for it.

    I don't really know the pre-history of 4x4, though, and how and when it came into disco and what was the original spark for the use of it in detroit and chicago. Motown's all offbeats and (proto) breakbeats, isn't it?
    Interesting, there's plenty of 4/4 in the early days of the Cabs/League as well.

  2. #17
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    I was gonna say, although not really sure about going into all this again, that four on the floor is just a stomp, a pulse. It's so basic that aside from the human race originating in Africa I don't think you can truthfully say it begins with any one culture.

    The three over four rhythms you get in a lot of Acid is more 'African' in character. But even then it's a natural consequence of having sequence lengths in multiples of 3 in a 303 with a drum machine playing fours. And that scenario is encouraged partly because of the way the 303 sequencer works.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by zhao View Post
    Shake is an immense talent, and also, for lack of better, from what i know, an idiosyncratic character in terms of both music and personality. i have on many occasions heard mention of personal problems from his friends and people who have worked with him, as well as, if not major beef, certainly antagonism and conflict between him and other artists.

    just theorizing, but there are probably personal reasons for Shake to make a statement like this, which is almost certainly a reaction against what might be the prevalent attitude of a lot of detroit artists (an attitude he might be simply tired of), an example that readily comes to mind is DJ bones:
    Worked with him loads, never had a single problem or grumble.

  4. #19
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    Hi Zhao,

    yeah the thread was locked when i went to reply and i didnt think it warranted starting a new thread.
    i only saw your pm now and i'll go into it later, a little busy at the moment and have to mail someone to ask if i can use their name. (they aren't a big deal or anything or someone people would necessarily know but they dealt with mike banks over something and were left with some very bitter feelings afterwards)

    also, just very simply, the way richie hawtin was treated when he came to Detroit to do parties way back, is a good example of the type of prejudice that i am refering too.



    for me, simplifying the argument down to this is just silly, but its a good example of why people think it was a sizeable factor.




    i think chicago house was a bigger factor in the detroit sound by the end, but thats another story.......

  5. #20
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    the drum itself was invented somewhere around Kenya, so the 4/4, the 3/5, the 7/12, and all rhythm is African in origin.

    but although a prominent element, techno is about more than the 4/4 beat. like i said, there are the basslines, the keys, the phrasing and the track structure to consider. and in these respects it is directly descendent of disco, and funk, and earlier African American forms.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhao View Post
    and all rhythm is African in origin.
    only in as far as all humans are african in origin.

    rhythm is inherent in the passage of time, in nature, the structure of the universe, our bodies.

    and you don't need drums to have rhythms, or a stomp, a pulse. tap your foot. wherever drums originated.

  7. #22

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    I wonder how many times we can have the same conversation Lock it now

  8. #23
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    well i meant rhythm in the context of music making.

  9. #24
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    tangentially, i just witnessed ATOM™ as part of Raster Noton showcase for Transmediale and he was in the classic digi-electro 21st Century Kraftwerk mode. wicked, wicked set. highlight of the evening. even my non-electronic music girlfriend was thoroughly engrossed and impressed. home computer indeed.
    Last edited by zhao; 09-02-2010 at 03:39 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slothrop View Post
    FWIW Giorgio Moroder claims that he started using four on the floor beats after hearing a German oompah band at a wedding. IIRC he claims that he'd been trying to figure out how to get european kids dancing to black american sounds when they couldn't get their head around the beats, and suddenly realized that if german grannies could get down to a big bass drum going oonce oonce oonce oonce then european discos would go mad for it.

    That's actually fascinating, have you got a link for that?

    It certainly gels with my armchair theorising about the popularity of the off-beat bassline in Trance being a by-product of European folk music and specifically marching bands in the Western European coal belt...

  11. #26
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    that sounds not quite right to me. there was already plenty of big bass drums going oonce oonce oonce oonce in black American music at that point?

  12. #27

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    "And, you see, no one man owns house because house music is a universal language, spoken and understood by all."
    And also: it ain't where you from it's where you at.

    but the problem here is one of primacy, and the central genetic axis of this music
    Probably humans originated in Africa, and therefore probably drums did. Big whoopee. That's all our joint ancestry. Black Americans don't own the 4/4 beat any more than white Frenchmen because we all came from the same place. Nobody knows what colour the earliest people were; nowadays we come in a variety of hues.
    Do European and Asian musicians have to disregard all of musical history right down to hitting drums in order for you to credit them with worthiness? Because modern africans are black, therefore modern white people are just copying them? Even though we have the same ancestors?

    To say Kraftwerk didn't originate anything is as ridiculous as saying Juan Atkins didn't, or Little Richard didn't.
    Kraftwerk were influenced by James Brown and the Beach Boys and Stockhausen and Satie and Schubert and many more. Through that and also in spite of it they created something new. Not 100% new because that's impossible, but at least as new as, say, Detroit Techno was in 1987.

    Musical history is a rich back-and-forth between many different groups and individuals.
    Race is a red herring for suckers.
    Saying "we own this" is stupid. It's more valid for a black person to make techno than a white person?
    Was it "biting" for Mark Imperial to make seminal house records in chicago waaaay back in 1985 despite being of Asian descent? (Mark Imperial was DJ Assault's favourite producer when he started DJing)

    Get over your silly racial prejudice.

    DJ Bone rails against commercialisation of a sound he loves, he's dissing the silly trance shit that was all over German MTV in the 90s. He doesn't say a word about race in your quote. I bet he loves Kraftwerk. I know Derrick May & Juan Atkins do. A couple of years ago I saw Juan & Karl Bartos having a chat, I don't think Juan was attacking Karl for stealing from Motown. Do you think Clear would exist without Numbers first?

    Shake isn't saying "White people invented techno" he's glossing over something more complex like: Detroit techno is just an extension of Chicago house and disco + italo + depeche mode + yazoo + YMO + visage + all the other stuff they played on WBMX, some of which is by black people, some by white people, some by Japanese etc.
    YMO & Italo disco sounds are influenced by older black music fused with other stuff (plastic asian exoticism / kraftwerk synth sounds).
    On the other hand Detroit group A Number Of Names were trying hard to sound European, even putting on a fake accent on the so-called "first ever Detroit techno track" ShariVari.
    Back and forth, you see? Everything influencing everything else all the way back to the drums created by humans who were not just the ancestors of modern black people but the ancestors of everybody.

  13. #28
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    Edward, i was talking about the "genetic axis" of the music, not of the people who made/make it.

    meaning the direct ancestral lineage of techno is funk soul disco motown gospel blues jazz slave songs, WITH loads of other influences and inspiration.

    no one group "owns" anything. it is a hybrid entity. but its origins are not evenly distributed amongst various sources of inspiration; it is indeed more the offspring of one lineage than others. AND:

    certain groups or classes have a history of claiming the culture of other groups or classes as their own, and getting credit for it, like Bones said. and i see, perhaps being overly sensitive, perhaps not, a little bit of the same thing happening with Techno.
    Last edited by zhao; 09-02-2010 at 07:05 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhao View Post
    ATOMô
    Love the album from last year. Witty...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ PIMP View Post
    Love the album from last year. Witty...
    a good listen, and yes with wit and humor! not an easy feat for a raster noton release

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