Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What if an individual who had ptsd could just go out to the shops and get some E?

Ecstasy and psychedelics should be freely available to anyone suffering from the grievous psychiatric disorder, not-being-able-to-get-heinously-spangled-now-and-then-syndrome.

Interesting tidbit on the prisoners, droid, you got any links for that? I don't disbelieve you at all, I've heard of similar things from various sources. I think a lot of early test subjects were army 'volunteers' as well as prisoners - fuck knows if they had any idea what they were volunteering for, though...
 
D

droid

Guest
IIRC I first read about it in Andrew Tyler's excellent 'street drugs'. Think there's some stuff about it in 'the secret history of Acid' as well. Part of (at least) one of the pre-MkUltra CIA experiments - Bluebird.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I should make clear that I certainly don't subscribe to this notion that if everyone just tripped hard enough, Kapital would somehow come crashing down and we'd all live in peace and harmony with flowers in our hair for ever more.

regardless of whether they went and crushed da system

I should in turn make clear that I'm not particularly against the use of psychedelics in a recreational context. not for it either, tho. if cats want to do them for whatever reason, then let them, as (hopefully) responsible individuals aware of the potential positive & negative consequences. I just don't want any confusion about their having any inherently liberating quality. (however: heroin, coke, speed, etc - f**k that ish. f**k it hard. destroys lives, full stop, and brings no material benefit to anyone except (while we're at it) c-a-p-i-t-a-l-i-s-t scum - i.e. the "bosses", not the street-level dealers)

Generally I'm in favor of decriminalization, even w/hard drugs, for a variety of reasons. As odious of as the idea of, say, packs of R.J. Reynolds spliffs being sold at Wal-Mart is, it's better than what we have now, i.e. prisons overflowing with non-violent drug offenders and the huge expenditure of resources on an essentially unwinnable war (the War on Drugs being, of course, an industry unto itself, with the attendant consituency and lobbyists). What the Netherlands & Portugal have done: making a clear demarcation between soft and hard drugs; and another between personal use and trafficking. Glenn Greenwald actually did a rather interesting study (commissioned by, of all people, the Cato Institute) on impact of Portugal's drug policy - see here.

The position I'm holding is just that it sounds like it could be very helpful to some people, on a purely personal basis, to take drugs like these in a supervised setting as part of a course of clinical treatment.

I don't think anyone's arguing against this. As I said - do the double-blind, randomized trials, as well as the case studies, and let the research bear it out. If the results are favorable, great, add psychedelics to the arsenal as a tool for treating the appropriate disorders.

to your more general point - what's wrong w/reducing unhappiness - not to sound like a misanthrope, or to privilege suffering, but the obvious answer is that sometimes being unhappy (or angry, despondent, etc) is a perfectly natural reaction. not only to personal tragedies like untimely deaths of loved ones, but also to economic setbacks, and even to events that may not affect one personally. admittedly since there's no clear definition of a "natural" v. unnatural reaction, things can get murky, which is where the opinions of both patient & therapist come in. I dunno, but it seems fair to attribute at least some portion of mental illness in the modern world to the alienation of consumer society (in which everything, including relationships, becomes a commodity, etc), if perhaps not the largest portion.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Generally I'm in favor of decriminalization, even w/hard drugs, for a variety of reasons. As odious of as the idea of, say, packs of R.J. Reynolds spliffs being sold at Wal-Mart is, it's better than what we have now, i.e. prisons overflowing with non-violent drug offenders and the huge expenditure of resources on an essentially unwinnable war (the War on Drugs being, of course, an industry unto itself, with the attendant consituency and lobbyists). What the Netherlands & Portugal have done: making a clear demarcation between soft and hard drugs; and another between personal use and trafficking.

Yep, I'd pretty much agree with all of that.

I don't think anyone's arguing against this.

Well lanugo seemed to be going that way, for one...

to your more general point - what's wrong w/reducing unhappiness - not to sound like a misanthrope, or to privilege suffering, but the obvious answer is that sometimes being unhappy (or angry, despondent, etc) is a perfectly natural reaction. not only to personal tragedies like untimely deaths of loved ones, but also to economic setbacks, and even to events that may not affect one personally. admittedly since there's no clear definition of a "natural" v. unnatural reaction, things can get murky, which is where the opinions of both patient & therapist come in. I dunno, but it seems fair to attribute at least some portion of mental illness in the modern world to the alienation of consumer society (in which everything, including relationships, becomes a commodity, etc), if perhaps not the largest portion.

But if some sort of treatment, possibly including the use of psychedelics, could help people think differently about things like society and their place in it, couldn't that reduce the very alienation you're talking about? If you could help people think differently about themselves and about other people, and people started feeling better as a result (really, genuinely feeling better I mean, when they're not on any drugs at all, rather than just supressing the sadness with antidepressants or taking sedatives to keep the panic at bay), wouldn't that be totally revolutionary? And not a petrol bomb in sight!

(I'm not saying this would happen if only someone went around distributing blotter acid to all and sundry - the most likely result of that would be utter madness, and not in a good way - just that I think something like that could happen, possibly, as the result of some sort of very wide-ranging re-evaluation of society, in which certain drugs that are currently illegal and regarded mainly as 'recreational' could play a part.)
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
But if some sort of treatment, possibly including the use of psychedelics, could help people think differently about things like society and their place in it, couldn't that reduce the very alienation you're talking about?

your question on reduction of unhappiness is really a philosophical one, deserving of a long, thoughtful answer (solid material for a dissertation or two I'd think), but my short answer is - yes and no. the question revolves back to - is reducing that alienation via treatment desirable? in the sense that simply helping people to cope (to survive) is always desirable, yes. OTOH what would much more desirable is a world that didn't require "treatment" to help people cope in the first place. do you see where I'm going? insomuch as alienation is an appropriate response to things which are alienating, is it better to mediate the alienation with medication or to attack its root causes? I think the latter is always a better option, when at all possible, though sometimes it isn't.

(big disclaimer before going on: as stated several times, mental illness & depression have many causes, I'm not shunting it all off onto capitalism, or commodity relations, or any other buzzword. when I say "alienation" I'm referring to a very specific kind of discontent, what one might call an existential separation from both the self & others.)

there's also the separate, but possibly related issue, of how to treat legimitate emotions. in general a mental condition crosses the line into "treatable" when it impairs an individual's day-to-day function. sometimes the line is clear, as w/schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. other times it isn't - i.e. the murky world of grief counseling. ultimately, again, it's up to the individual to decide.

If you could help people think differently about themselves and about other people, and people started feeling better as a result (really, genuinely feeling better I mean, when they're not on any drugs at all, rather than just supressing the sadness with antidepressants or taking sedatives to keep the panic at bay), wouldn't that be totally revolutionary?

not unless it induced a resulting material change to (or abolition of) power structures*, no. feeling better doesn't mean anything devoid of context. what is one feeling better about? what if, for example, a trader at an investment bank feels better about betting on a currency to fail? what if a jailer feels better about beating prisoners? and so on. keep in mind as well that in any regard this is only available to a relatively tiny portion of humanity, the most affluent section thereof. I don't think "feeling better" is much of an option for the billions of people living on the margins of the world economic system*.

*keep in mind I'm not saying that treatment, or use of psychedelic drugs, is therefore worthless.
 
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