http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/science/12psychedelics.html
about time i would say. what say you? particularly you know who
about time i would say. what say you? particularly you know who
Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
lanugo
von Verfall erzittern
Interesting development. However, given the amazing capacity of the capitalist system to absorb any kind of seemingly emancipatory trend in society and exploit it for its own sustenance I could imagine that a wider mainstream acceptance of hallucinogens may result in a kind of commercialisation and banalization of the psychedelic experience: epiphanies on prescription. The allowance of hallucinogenic drugs may very well be a deliberate measure of social engineering to counter wide-spread depression and unhappiness. It's perfectly practical for the powerholders that now meaning of life may be directly administered by means of pharmaceuticals. It makes perfect sense in its unsurpassable cynicism. Just think of the way everybody is hooked on "soma" in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Hmm...I can see where you're coming from, I think, but I think to automatically assume this is some terribly cynical use of psychedelics is rather, well, cynical.
Remember that, while there were people like Ken Kesey who went around giving LSD away for free, people were still buying and selling it in the '60s like any other commodity. And magic mushrooms were being openly sold in markets and head shops in the UK until a couple of years ago. I don't think this has any real impact on the profundity or otherwise of the experiences catalysed by drugs like these.
And is there anything especially wrong with trying to "counter wide-spread depression and unhappiness"? Less unhappiness would be a good thing, no? Or is this a k-punky sort of protest that we should be depressed and unhappy because kapitalism is inherently depressing, and it would be somehow 'wrong' or counter-revolutionary not to be unhappy until the dragon Kapital is slain and we're all finally free?
Also, isn't the 'soma' a kind of stupifying, vaguely euphoric Valium-like sedative? I've not read BNW but from what I know of it, soma sounds like the exact opposite of a psychedelic.
Remember that, while there were people like Ken Kesey who went around giving LSD away for free, people were still buying and selling it in the '60s like any other commodity. And magic mushrooms were being openly sold in markets and head shops in the UK until a couple of years ago. I don't think this has any real impact on the profundity or otherwise of the experiences catalysed by drugs like these.
And is there anything especially wrong with trying to "counter wide-spread depression and unhappiness"? Less unhappiness would be a good thing, no? Or is this a k-punky sort of protest that we should be depressed and unhappy because kapitalism is inherently depressing, and it would be somehow 'wrong' or counter-revolutionary not to be unhappy until the dragon Kapital is slain and we're all finally free?
Also, isn't the 'soma' a kind of stupifying, vaguely euphoric Valium-like sedative? I've not read BNW but from what I know of it, soma sounds like the exact opposite of a psychedelic.
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Woebot
Well-known member
yeah. scary but probably right on. i've done a certain amount of hallucinogens and its always struck me (in the cold light of day) actually how hugely they work with one's imagination - the emancipatory part of the experience seems actually a part of their elative narcotic effect, the effects which one usually associates with morphine derivatives (ie not halluciongenic aspects).
i mean, not to diss anyone (or myself even) but when people saying they spoke to green dwarves from space there is usually an element of creativity and elaboration in the recounting. i mean you could counter by saying that i cant have had any full-blown visual experiences, but i did experience things like big words written over everything-but even things like that, i dunno.
people are better off without drugs i reckon.
has anyone seen that hilarious clip with jack black - where he discovers halfway through he hasnt actually had any acid? dunno if this is the one - at work so i cant check (tee hee)
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droid
Guest
I dunno. I think the spiritual/revelationary aspects of psychedelics are inherently opposed to co-option... Im not sure how you could co-opt the destruction of the ego TBH, and I don't see how increased empathy and connectivity with others can be anything but opposed to capitalism. Ecstasy, weed, sure... but LSD and mushrooms actually force you to think about things in a way that other drugs don't. In my day I looked at acid and the associated ego-death as a mental spring clean or internal therapy session as much as anything else.
@Woebot. I cant speak for anyone else, but I think the psychedelic experiences that have the most lasting impacts are the ones that happen in your head through thought, without external stimuli - not the curtains melting or whatever (although that can be a lot of fun too).
@Woebot. I cant speak for anyone else, but I think the psychedelic experiences that have the most lasting impacts are the ones that happen in your head through thought, without external stimuli - not the curtains melting or whatever (although that can be a lot of fun too).
good point.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I agree with droid. Anyone who's ever really tripped, I mean tripped balls, knows that the true value of psychedelics lies in what they can do to your consciousness at an extremely deep, almost ontological level. The visuals, as beautiful as they are, are essentially cosmetic.
I think one thing a study like that shows is that it's beneficial to sometimes unhook from habitual modes of experiencing. I was quite interested in those studies a few years ago that showed low doses of Ketamine to be effective in treating stubborn cases of serious depression. I wonder what happened with that. As far as I know they still resort to things like ECT- surely Ketamine (or psilocybin)'s got to be worth a go.
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droid
Guest
lol
Of course, there is potential for manipulation, but in the societal sense - as soma, psychedelics just couldnt work...
Yeah, for sure... I was editing some instructional video relating to ECT administration there for work recently... chilling stuff.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I know there's a good deal of interest in using psychedelics, and also less 'far-out' drugs like MDMA, in 'end-of-life care' for patients with things like terminal cancer. And on the physical side, low doses of psilocybin and LSD (like, too small even for there to be much of a subjective effect) have been very effective in treating cluster headaches, IIRC.
also very true.
the destruction of ego can of course mean a void into which Capitalism or indeed any doctrine can be inserted. the unhinging of habitual perceptual patterns can be repurposed toward any end.
we only have to remember the history of Zen Buddhism and Fascism/Milliatarism in Japan. there the absence of Ego led to not freedom but absolute obedience to authority, beyond good and evil meant doing evil, etc.
Sometimes without even being asked!
I think one of the things Albert H. was researching when he synthesised LSD-25 was migraine treatments.Mr. Tea said:
what i know about Dr. Leary was that he was very much respected in the medical community until LSD became illegal, at which point he began to be seen as a hack.
have heard accounts of his treatments of criminals with a very high long term success rate...
Yeah - the natural desire or need to experience oneself as part of a greater whole can be diverted.zhao said:
But in the case of fascism it's not really absence of ego at all - rather a result of ego projecting it's struggle to maintain an incorrect (delusional) sense of self in the face of vast evidence to the contrary. Sometimes the drama plays itself out on a national scale...
right, and Zen Buddhist teachings and discipline played a vital role in fascism and milliatarism's assimilation of egos on a national scale...
lanugo
von Verfall erzittern
My point is that the profound experiences of gratification and life-affirmation hallucinogens undoubtedly provide, can very well be integrated in the diversion machinery of Capitalism. What individuals may treasure as a "life-changing revelation", is, in fact, just routinely prescribed palliation against prevalent depression which naturally arises from the meaninglessness of life in consumerist society. Just as meditation and yoga, originally aiming at leaving all worldly affairs behind, are now used by all kinds of yuppies as relaxation techniques to become even more efficient.
Oh, and soma is definitively described as a strong psychedelic drug in BNW. By the way, the depiction of the "orgy-porgys" in the same novel is very reminiscent of a night in Berghain or wherever. I honestly believe that in a couple of decades Western society could end up looking very similar to Huxley's dystopian vision.
Oh, and soma is definitively described as a strong psychedelic drug in BNW. By the way, the depiction of the "orgy-porgys" in the same novel is very reminiscent of a night in Berghain or wherever. I honestly believe that in a couple of decades Western society could end up looking very similar to Huxley's dystopian vision.
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