Mental Arithmetic

IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
There's a trendy new cakeshop (don't ask) that has just opened at the top of the road from me, I went in a minute ago to get a coffee (which was very good - fair enough) and found the two girls behind the counter engaged in a deep disagreement relating to a customer order. The disagreement was over how many eights there are in forty-two - when I entered one was saying "are you sure it's not seven?". Ultimately they had to ask me to do it for them. I can understand not being good at mental arithmetic (I wouldn't claim to be good myself) but to absolutely lack the ability to work something like that out seems to me to be bordering on a disability - I mean, you could never check your change in a shop or work out how many of something you could buy or plan your spending in even the simplest detail. Then I went home and told the story to my flatmate's girlfriend - turns out she couldn't work it out either - she actually said "it is seven isn't it?". Is this normal?
 
grizzleb

grizzleb

Well-known member
I always hated maths until I left school and realised that infact it's pretty easy and to know basic stuff (like 8 goes into 40 5 times !!!!) is pretty essential to daily life. That's serious mongoism you've just described mate.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
When I was tutoring a couple of years back, I found the really young kids (especially those at expensive schools, of course) were often arithmetic ninjas, sometimes much quicker than me - even those who, in other respects, were no good at maths*. GCSE students at state schools? Forget it, they were reaching for the calculator for sums that would have made the younger kids laugh.

I hope vimothy sees this thread, maths education is something very close to his heart. Mixed_biscuits too probably. Edit: and d_q of course, sorry!

*'real' maths, of course, has very little to do with arithmetic per se, but a lot of people conflate the two because at the elementary level, 'maths' lessons are invariably concerned mainly with arithmetic and measure
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
A lot of it is laziness I guess. I know a lot of people who are dyslexic, some of the them make a huge effort to spell correctly because they know they have a weakness, others just go "I'm dyslexic so I'm not even gonna bother spell checking and no-one will care" - I think people make the same kind of decision with sums and stuff.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, I've found myself getting cross when a shop worker can't subtract one two-digit number from another, even when the difference is a multiple of 10, I mean that's pretty shocking - there can't be more than a small percentage of the population who literally couldn't do that if they tried, so for most people it must just come from laziness and lack of practice. Then I feel bad for getting cross and tell myself "Come on now Tea, not everyone's had your education", then I swing back the other way and think "Fuck it, this is hardly quantum mechanics, I could do this stuff in my head when I was a little kid and I can still do it now".

What's the answer though? Someone here (vim, I think) was worried that the Tories' education policy would focus too much on the 'three Rs' and that maths lessons would just become an arithmetic-fest as a result.
 
jenks

jenks

thread death
I'm interested in this - I have always had a very firm grasp of mental arithmetic, as did most my mum's family - no O levels but they'd soon let you know what you wanted on the dart's board or how much was in your cribbage hand.

My older son has always had what can only be described as an immediate and intuitive understanding of mental arithmetic.

But my wife, who is a very bright woman can get herself in a dreadful muddle when it comes to mental maths - much to the amusement of my son. I don't think it's laziness.

I wonder sometimes whether number concept is innate in some people and with the number of musicians on this board - is there any truth in the much paraded trope about the relationship between maths and music?
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
definitely isn't laziness in a lot of cases (though the prevalence of poor mental arithmetic in so many people suggests that in some cases it is)...maybe it's really badly taught to a lot of people.

for example, the times tables....and the concept of rough calculations to ensure you're in the right ball park...a lot fo things in simple maths can be visualised, learned by rote etc...
 
jenks

jenks

thread death
Also, and I think Maths teachers feel strongly about this, people wouldn't want to admit to being illiterate but are quite prepared to admit to being innumerate.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
baboon2004 said:
No, it's subnormal.

I dont' know. Some people have quite legitimate problems with number blindness, but most people don't even seem to try. If they were trying and couldn't do it, well...
Click to expand...

We all go a bit stupid when put on the spot, but really that's beyond thick.

I dunno what the cause is - at what stage do people substitute calculators for their brains in maths these days?
 
D

don_quixote

Trent End
definitely is laziness in a lot of cases. mental arithmetic has to be done by hard work. there's no magic button. you don't learn to play guitar by not putting effort in.

people just go "oh im crap at maths" and think this is in some way acceptable. no it fucking isn't you DUMBASS.
 
D

don_quixote

Trent End
jenks said:
Also, and I think Maths teachers feel strongly about this, people wouldn't want to admit to being illiterate but are quite prepared to admit to being innumerate.
Click to expand...

incidentally, as a maths teacher, i hadn't read this before i posted the above
 
D

don_quixote

Trent End
i used to work on a market stall when i was doing my a-levels. they made us do the sums on the paper bags. when i came along i found it so easy and they soon realised i was pretty sharp with my maths. whenever a new person started they'd get me to follow them and check their sums. the amount of new staff who left within the first two hours because they couldn't do maths. you'd see it happen all the time, they'd start and they'd muck up the first few times. then the hands went on the hips and they'd start getting huffy. another few mistakes and they'd get the word from the boss, "i'm sorry, this isn't the job for you. if i kept you on you'd lose me a lot of money" - and off they'd go.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Jenks is right, most people would be mortified if they suspected other people might think they were borderline illiterate, but somehow it's OK to be innumerate "because there's calculators now", innit. Er, except when there isn't (ever get out a calculator to check your change?).
 
STN

STN

sou'wester
I would far rather be inumerate than illiterate, though I'm thankfully neither. Do you really check your change every time you come out of a shop?
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
I'd like to be able - as a bare minimum - to work out how many fives and tens I would expect back if I paid for something with a twenty.
Just to make it clear, I'm very poor so I am talking about a twenty pence piece.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
STN said:
I would far rather be inumerate than illiterate, though I'm thankfully neither. Do you really check your change every time you come out of a shop?
Click to expand...

I take it you don't, then? It's not like it's an onerous task or anything. Maybe it is for some people, I dunno. It's just that having worked in a shop and a pub, I know how easy it is to make daft slips even if you can add up. And every now and then it saves me a quid or two, which seems ample pay-off for a second's effort.
 
STN

STN

sou'wester
Well, thinking about it, perhaps I do, I'm not sure. About to go to the shop. Will report back.
 
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