Adam Curtis

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Surely taking logical positivism to the extreme extent of saying "How can I even be sure I exist?" is demolished by "cogito ergo sum", isn't it? In other words, how can something that doesn't exist have any subjective experience, such as pondering the problem of its own existence?

Goint to watch the second one in a bit, just got a couple of beers cooling in the fridge...

Edit: bugger, we're onto the third one already, aren't we - gonna watch 2 and 3 tonight then, I reckon.
 
Last edited:

crackerjack

Well-known member
think it definitely got better as it went along, 2 & 3 both really good

bit puzzled by the 'it's the libruls' fault' in 90s Rwanda/Congo though - what would've happened if the camps hadn't been there? surely the Tutsis would still have been out for revenge - and the Congolese wouldn't have welcomed hundreds of thousands of Hutu refugees roaming free ever deeper into their country
 

Phaedo

Well-known member
Really enjoyed tonight's one, fantastic TV. Left me feeling thoroughly depressed at human beings/culture though.

Regarding the point above I guess he just meant to show that Liberal attitudes however well meaning don't always help situations, which they didn't in that example (the camps meant more Armies/nations entered the country, all really with the goal of getting natural resources). Probably just wanted to add some balance with the amount of imperialist ideas being slated through out the series.

Anyway, got to hand it to Curtis that was a great series, loved all 3 episodes in totally different ways.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
Cool - just been reading Gaddis on his Europeans in Africa bent, will be interesting to see how these two tie in.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
God, some heavy stuff in that last one! The white mercernary boasting about bayonetting blacks, Dian Fossey as an ape-lover who considered the local humans an irritation, ultra-rationalist George Price deciding his inspirations must have been a gift from God, the Congolese 'space programme', von Neumann, Teller, Playstations...almost too many ideas presented in one hour to actually process and assimilate properly, don't you think? Compulsive viewing, though.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Surely taking logical positivism to the extreme extent of saying "How can I even be sure I exist?" is demolished by "cogito ergo sum", isn't it? In other words, how can something that doesn't exist have any subjective experience, such as pondering the problem of its own existence?

Goint to watch the second one in a bit, just got a couple of beers cooling in the fridge...

Edit: bugger, we're onto the third one already, aren't we - gonna watch 2 and 3 tonight then, I reckon.
Of course, as Lichtenberg will tell you, the cogito doesn't make clear what the 'I' is so to speak. It doesn't guarantee an individual with a history or even anything outside of immediate experience. I'm guessing that must be the 'I' that Greenspan doubted.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
I think maybe there should be a distinction made between the arguments he's making which I think are relatively simple and the extremely varied and heterogenous bits of footage/evidence he uses to tease the arguments out.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
Really enjoyed the third one. Loved that bit near the end where Hamilton goes to the absolutely devastated (Rwanda was it?) town to "find evidence that Western medicine was dangerous and misguided" - thinking he needs to study chimpanzee feces.

I think that that was kind of the basis of the anti-liberal stance - it was that Western 'rational' idea that complicated it.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Belgian colonialism and subsequent meddling in Zaire/Congo resonates rather well with today's Cyanide & Happiness:

month.png


Maybe the C&H crew watch Curtis?
 

eltsac

Member
I dig Adam Curtis, but concur with what a few of you have said with regards to him covering up certain flaws in the progression of his arguements, and at some points there seems to be a fair amount of dissonance.

I don't think you can take this particular series as a coherent piece, it lacks a central focus and flirts with many disparat ideas. But as a piece of film, the archived footage and combination of music is gorgeous, the pacing is perfect for our modern minds and short attention spans and as most have said, its incredibly intriguing to watch. Although I've heard most of the theories/findings he discusses before, his presentation of them is by far the most interesting medium.

One thing that gets to me about the latest installment, and it was also touched on in the second, is how he states we are more and more mechanistic, machine like, computer like. Though isn't it a bit self-fulfilling in a way? We created these machines, with our own cold hard logic, especially the logic of those who created computers. Therefore isn't more of a case of the machines being created in our image?

For anyone who was into this, especially the first part, I'd said read Naomi Klien's "The Shock Doctrine," which deals with themes of corporatism, US foriegn policy and self interest and all in a great, though very partisan way.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
This series feels like Peter Greenaway's early work, the Falls and all that. Hadn't seen the connection before.
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
This is probably me being dim, but what does the mayhem in Rwanda and the Congo have to do with the idea that the machines are taking over? Is Curtis saying that it was partly a product of taking a mechanistic view of the world or am I just missing the point?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
One thing that gets to me about the latest installment, and it was also touched on in the second, is how he states we are more and more mechanistic, machine like, computer like. Though isn't it a bit self-fulfilling in a way? We created these machines, with our own cold hard logic, especially the logic of those who created computers. Therefore isn't more of a case of the machines being created in our image?

Perhaps he's going to touch on this is in the next episode, but certainly in the last couple of decades I think things have gone - or are 'meant' to have gone - the other way completely. You know, the 'caring, sharing' '90s as a reaction to the greed-is-good '80s, the explosion in 'therapy' culture with everyone encouraged to talk about their feelings, 'emotional intelligence' and so on. The watershed in British culture being the death of Diana (and with her the stiff upper lip, or so the story goes).
 
Last edited:

crackerjack

Well-known member
This is probably me being dim, but what does the mayhem in Rwanda and the Congo have to do with the idea that the machines are taking over? Is Curtis saying that it was partly a product of taking a mechanistic view of the world or am I just missing the point?

The direct link is the hunt for minerals, specifically coltan and casserite, which are used in modern electronics, mainly phones. Congo has the vast majority of these. If you strip away the connection to the Rwandan civil war, the war in Congo is largely a war of gangs competing for these.

Then there's the Congolese (or was it Rwandan?) connection to Hamilton's work too.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Only just watched the last one which was the best I think. I'm in a hurry now so can't say much but off the top of my head that was the best episode in the way that it jumped around so much with loads of stuff and felt like it was compressed and needed to be longer in a way which the other ones didn't. It wasn't quite as though the ideas in the first two episodes were stretched out to fill the time but they didn't have the same amount of all-over-the-placeness that I was hoping for. Last one also lacked focus but I guess that's the other side of the same coin. And it was very dark. Will write my thoughts on the actual content later when I've got a bit of time but I will say that I can't imagine many people here like The Pizzicato 5 but I do although I haven't listened to 'em for ages and I was pleased to hear them all over the intro.
 
Top