salute tottenham

sufi

sufi

lala
HMGovt said:
Eh, it's from the Telegraph, but it is an interesting piece of local reporting with some perspective on one of the more interesting developments of the past 24 hours - vigilantism, turf wars http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...don-riots-the-knives-are-being-sharpened.html
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this is like something from the 19th century, & the comments are worse
davelj
3 minutes agoI hope your "partner" was female, Sir and commited toward a marital relationship......if not, you are part of the problem ???? 3 minutes agoI hope your "partner" was female, Sir and commited toward a marital relationship......if not, you are part of the problem ????
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
grizzleb said:
Well, for one thing, you haven't read the book and you're, so to speak, judging it by its cover. Maybe it discusses the subtleties of class.

There is a link between what is called 'chav culture' and poverty. You can't say that most chavs aren't working class - maybe they don't work now but I'd wager their grandparents did. And working in farmfoods for a year I worked alongside people I'd definitely call 'neds' or whatever, they worked, they liked a drink, they watched shite telly and they lived on schemes. They weren't bad people but they probably didn't have much hope or the future, neither did their children.

What you're talking about assumes there is this large group of people who are basically scum and can be excluded from society on that basis. To do so is to basically say that there is a group who are no longer deserving of any intervention on their behalf. I think that the only way we can improve the lot of people in estates and what else is to not view them as simply 'needlessly aggressive, frequently inebriated' but people who exist in malign and insidious social conditions that results in a kind of nihilistic hopelessness and anger. The only way to improve on this is to take efforts to try and improve their conditions.

I think that there has been a concerted effort to break down class identification and redefine the terms of what belonging to a certain class means since the 1980's. I view it as two-pronged. People who would have identified as working class 30 years ago will often now identify as middle-class simply because they have aspirations, they perhaps own their own council house, they want their kids to go to a university. The distruction of the trade-union movement also contributes to this, as less and less people see themselves tied together with workers doing similar jobs and trying to get better conditions for themselves.
On the other hand you have the muddying of the lines of what 'working class' means to start to become the aformentioned 'chav' culture (also called the underclass), and nobody who is aware of the significance of class would want to identified with such a group as it is portrayed.

The benefits for essentially dissolving the working class as a self-identified group seem to me pretty obvious.
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I generally think what you say on here is brilliant, I generally think what you say here is overlooked, and I'll address that in my next post, but what I'd like to say, at 1:36 in the morning after 3 nights of little sleep and whatever, is that I'd like both you and baboon to go into local politics, please. I don't care whether either of you actually do, but in my quiet moments I'm a prophet and you should really listen to what I say.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
atoga said:
on top of the "we are all middle class now" type sentiments there is also the idea that working/lower class values have eroded. there is no more noble working class which works hard at their factory job and buys sensibly priced footwear - instead they recklessly piss away their money (provided by the welfare state of course) on expensive trainers, gaudy jewellery & whatever other un-classy shit you can think of.

this must be related to why trainers are the dominant object which people are talking about being stolen, rather than bikes or ipads.

unlike white trash in the US though, they don't have a lobby (i think?) and no one talks about them as though they are the "real" population of their country.
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I really don't know what you're saying. I don't know where you're from, but really you should shut the fuck up. I've really had enough of cunts like you on the net over the past few days. Really just fuck off. Fuck off, and don't pass comment on shit you obviously have no knowledge of. You're just embarrassing yourself. Really, just fuck off. Preferably kill yourself. You'd be doing the world a favour.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
atoga said:
i'm saying that's one of the dominant sentiments, it's not what i believe. thought that was clear

whatever slime
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Is it? I thought you were re-iterating reactionary cunt thought, adding your own 'dime' of cock, like barebacking without the real risk, and then re-viewing dialogue from an even more patronising point as an ideal of being constructive.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
atoga said:
i was just lumping onto grizzleb's post - the idea that there's no more respectable or diligent working class, just chavs is a somewhat important one i thought. it probably has as much to do with the idea that chavs cannot be helped as the idea that (almost) everyone is middle class now through college or car ownership or whatever.

sorry, i suck at posting on internet forums i guess. imma fuck off & kill myself now
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oh god just ignore me man, i apologise. i drunk riot juice and been out n inside this stuff on internets, tired and drunk. sorry m8, i just had a fistful of stuff in pubs and facebook and twitter, can't see wood for trees. too many people and you got it in the neck, apologies. at least slime is good for lube.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
atoga said:
i was just lumping onto grizzleb's post - the idea that there's no more respectable or diligent working class, just chavs is a somewhat important one i thought. it probably has as much to do with the idea that chavs cannot be helped as the idea that (almost) everyone is middle class now through college or car ownership or whatever.

sorry, i suck at posting on internet forums i guess. imma fuck off & kill myself now
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Yeah, that was a bit harsh Sloane. I know where you're coming from though, the lurch to the right by almost fucking everyone is a bit wearing.

To get back to the post above, yeah, I think that's accurate. I'm trying to think of the last time I even saw a depiction of a specifically identified working class person outside of a Ken Loach film and I'm struggling, while the idea of "chavs" and the underclass seems to dominate the discourse. I don't like using the latter term for the similar reasons as I dislike the former.
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
BTW has anyone encountered any commentary that actually talks to those involved in the rioting? Conspicuous by it's absence so far.
 
G

gumdrops

Well-known member
saw more of it yesterday than before. one birmingham guy said on ch4 news that theyre doing it cos the police dont like black and asian people (in the same area where the black/asian riots were ironically, i somehow think he added the asian bit to appeal to the asian reporter interviewing him), there was one tottenham guy talking to boris (who didnt seem to be fully attentive) talking about he was sick of people paying such high taxes as the reason, and then another kid on newsnight said it was cos of a lack of opportunities. two girls on bbc radio said it was just cos they were having fun and they hate the police and wanted to show them they cant do shit. there was also some interviews with rioters on bbc news and they said they were looting from all the businesses cos they were 'rich' (didnt realise newsagents and cornershops were so well off myself) .

newsnight was pretty dire tbh - bad panelists apart from the two at the very end, and if youre inviting 'the youth' onto the show, at least let them have a bit more of a forum. and michael gove just looked like a complete idiot having a hissy fit at harman instead of actually dealing with the issues. though he was right that these kids grew up under labour, not the tories.

darcus howe interview with the bbc (she is a truly pathetic knee jerk interviewer of the highest order who cant even get his name right)
 
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B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
DannyL said:
To get back to the post above, yeah, I think that's accurate. I'm trying to think of the last time I even saw a depiction of a specifically identified working class person outside of a Ken Loach film
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I'd say Andrea Arnold and Lynne Ramsay have both taken up that baton, as it were, very well. Fish Tank was brilliant for the way it tackled class without having to be didactic about it, really brilliant.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
DannyL said:
BTW has anyone encountered any commentary that actually talks to those involved in the rioting? Conspicuous by it's absence so far.
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This gives an impression of who took part, from someone who was actually there and got hassled by both cops and rioters for his troubles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part

I think the difficulty is most people will quite sensibly decline to talk about this stuff if they are actually doing it.

There is some youtube about the hackney riots with interviews of people who were there but it's hard to tell if they are bystanders of actual participants (a grey areas anyway) - I suspect mainly the latter.

Also, you are OTM re: chavs, of course.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
baboon2004 said:
I'd say Andrea Arnold and Lynne Ramsay have both taken up that baton, as it were, very well. Fish Tank was brilliant for the way it tackled class without having to be didactic about it, really brilliant.
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Forgotten that one, good call. I guess we're talking about press representations mostly, on reflection (even if I did bring up Loach), as they have so much more power in shaping discourse than relatively invisible UK cinema.
 
A

alex

Do not read this.
Mr. Tea said:
Not disagreeing with you entirely - just saying that some people love nicking stuff for the sake of it.
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i can afford the little Red Bull shot things, doesn't stop me nicking those, and when I can, fresh croissants, from tescos.
 
A

alex

Do not read this.
atoga said:
on top of the "we are all middle class now" type sentiments there is also the idea that working/lower class values have eroded. there is no more noble working class which works hard at their factory job and buys sensibly priced footwear - instead they recklessly piss away their money (provided by the welfare state of course) on expensive trainers, gaudy jewellery & whatever other un-classy shit you can think of.
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is this your belief?
 
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