salute tottenham

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droid

Guest
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet.

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.

2. I cant quite predict exactly what Luka is going to say on any topic, but I can usually guarantee that it will be stupid, ill-considered and needlessly personalised.
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet.

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.

2. I cant quite predict exactly what Luka is going to say on any topic, but I can usually guarantee that it will be stupid, ill-considered and needlessly personalised.

Where's the info about 4 shots droid? I can only find people saying two.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
the cause is the same issue thats been deeply entrenched in the black community for decades - police brutality. the later events, im not so sure about. ive heard its cos a 16 yr old was hit by police but this is the sort of thing that is never going away and just boils over every so often and will continue to do so as long as this never changes. but im still divided on whether the unfocused nature of the rioters' targets means we can really look at burning footlocker and raiding H&M as political rage. i think like most riots its just anger or hormones pouring over, kids just angry and needing to unleash it somewhere/somehow.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
the cause is the same issue thats been deeply entrenched in the black community for decades - police brutality. the later events, im not so sure about. ive heard its cos a 16 yr old was hit by police but this is the sort of thing that is never going away and just boils over every so often and will continue to do so as long as this never changes. but im still divided on whether the unfocused nature of the rioters' targets means we can really look at burning footlocker and raiding H&M as political rage. i think like most riots its just anger or hormones pouring over, kids just angry and needing to unleash it somewhere/somehow.

I think concentrating on exact cause-and-effect mechanisms is a bit of a red herring , agreed. There was a trigger (the Duggan murder) which brought to the fore lots of angry associations in many people's minds - police brutality, everyday racism/classism, poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of voice etc etc etc - which itself became a force dislocated from the original trigger.

I agree with what you've said, but where is the line between 'political rage' and just pure social anger? i dont' think there IS any clear line outside the imagination oof the media... just as students in December weren't ONLY going on the demo out of 'political rage', but also for a whole range of other reaons, some social, some to do with personal psychology.

Difference in reporting this time around is that people ove rthe weekend weren't given the luxury of having personal, complex psychologies, as most weren't middle class - instead they were just labelled 'scum'. I think discourse and rhetoric becomes just as important as facts in cases like this.

Edit: In a late capitalist society that values profit creation over people and entrenches class divides every day, violence enacted against uber-capitalist chains (it's a pity small businesses were targetted too, which is imo unforgivable) becomes an act of political protest, perhaps? Discuss....
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet.

Obviously the Police are not to be believed about pretty much everything.

The IPPC made a point of stating that

"Speculation that Mark Duggan was ‘assassinated’ in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan’s family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr070811_statement.aspx

I think this was one of the key messages circulating around rioters in Tottenham at the weekend.

It's not even clear who the gun that was recovered at the scene belonged to. The one photo of Duggan in the press holding up "gun fingers" are paraded out again and again, unhelpfully.

Another rumour is that the initial trouble commenced when police batoned a 16 year old girl who was protesting peacefully outside the cop shop.
 
D

droid

Guest
The IPPC made a point of stating that

"Speculation that Mark Duggan was ‘assassinated’ in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue. Following the formal identification of the body Mr Duggan’s family know that this is not the case and I would ask anyone reporting this to be aware of its inaccuracy and its inflammatory nature."

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr070811_statement.aspx

I think this was one of the key messages circulating around rioters in Tottenham at the weekend.

Yeah, I saw that. Im not sure he would have had to be shot repeatedly in the head for it be an execution TBH.

What is clear at this stage is that the Police version of events is bullshit. Just like Tomlinson, Smiley etc...

Do people trust the IPCC anyway? Genuine question.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Yes it is interesting in its wording and timing, as much as the content.

The IPCC are being criticised all over this year - not sure if people saw my blog post:
http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2011/08/bars-for-change-who-polices-the-police/

The film includes Brian Paddick criticising their "independence".

Also points out that they were on the scene in hours, which is unusual. Tottenham rings alarm bells, I think.

I don't know anyone who trusts them, but then I wouldn't, would I?

135436399.jpg
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
I think concentrating on exact cause-and-effect mechanisms is a bit of a red herring , agreed. There was a trigger (the Duggan murder) which brought to the fore lots of angry associations in many people's minds - police brutality, everyday racism/classism, poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of voice etc etc etc - which itself became a force dislocated from the original trigger.

I agree with what you've said, but where is the line between 'political rage' and just pure social anger? i dont' think there IS any clear line outside the imagination oof the media... just as students in December weren't ONLY going on the demo out of 'political rage', but also for a whole range of other reaons, some social, some to do with personal psychology.

Difference in reporting this time around is that people ove rthe weekend weren't given the luxury of having personal, complex psychologies, as most weren't middle class - instead they were just labelled 'scum'. I think discourse and rhetoric becomes just as important as facts in cases like this.

EDIT: Because to judge from the lengths sentencing at the student protests, when this goes to court, they're going to get the fucking book thrown at them.

Edit: In a late capitalist society that values profit creation over people and entrenches class divides every day, violence enacted against uber-capitalist chains (it's a pity small businesses were targetted too, which is imo unforgivable) becomes an act of political protest, perhaps? Discuss....

Spot on.Just to be more specific about some of your triggers, there's the retraction of EMA and the right to a University Education, as part of the general program of disenfranchisement. I also wondered about the use of "flash mobs", BBM etc as a response to kettling which many of them will have been made aware of from student protests earlier this year.

It feels to me pretty inevitable that some of my pupils will have been caught up in this. I hope not many of them, and none so bad that it fucks up their chances for the long term.
 
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gumdrops

Well-known member
dont think you can look at the destruction of the chains as political - mcds is bloody cheap. its just riot behaviour. it has no rules. you can look at it as being unable to take part in consumerism lashing out at the agents of capitalism that make them want stuff they cant afford but looters just loot, and they loot from places they want stuff, wherever it is, and they also destroy places, no matter what they are, its hard to really come out with coherent rules/readings for their behaviour.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
im not saying dont protest cos it will hurt tourism, im saying dont loot and burn places in your own backyard.

I think it's too easy to say that places like Tottenham retail park are part of the rioters "community". I'm not sure it is, except geographically.

In terms of economics I think it's more part of my community - I drive up there and go to B&Q or Maplins or whatever. And I don't get followed around by security guards or made to feel unwelcome either. As usual my experience as 42 year old white man is rather different from that of a Tottenham teenager.
 

vimothy

yurp
What I find interesting is the idea that if this was mindless looting and violence, then it was bad, but if people were stealing shoes and plasma screen tvs as a protest against police brutality or (even more tenuous) neoliberalism, i.e. if it was somehow "political", then it was okay.

Another thing that I find interesting is why non-police brutality doesn't get people so excited. Mark Duggan was supposedly a member of the same criminal gang as Mark Lambie, who was convicted of the kidnap and torture of two Tottenham men in 2002. Were there anti-Mark Lambie riots and looting? I certainly don't remember any.

A twenty year old man was shot and killed at a bus stop in London early on Saturday morning, though not by the police (unless this is part of a sinister cover-up, of course)--will there be riots and looting to protest his death? And what about the youth stabbed in Enfield during the riots last night--will the looters be out again tonight to protest against their own brutality to themselves?
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
"Another thing that I find interesting is why non-police brutality doesn't get people so excited."

um, cos they are paid for by the public to protect us?
 

luka

Well-known member
vimothy you are at your dullest when you are being deliberatly obtuse. drop that act.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
I think it's too easy to say that places like Tottenham retail park are part of the rioters "community". I'm not sure it is, except geographically.

they might not want it to be, but it is. if you consider most kids arent likely to have weekly travelcards riding around london (then again kids do get discount travel rates) theyre likely to spend more time in their local area. plus a lot of kids seem obsessed with their local areas/ends now more than ever before. whether this includes trying to keep it from getting burned to the ground of course is something else entirely. they probably dont really give a shit.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
1. From what I hear, Duggan was shot 4 times whilst lying on the ground after being restrained. The injured cop was miraculously saved as the bullet fired at him hit his radio/bible/piece of the true cross and was released from hospital after 24 hrs, and he was apparently shot by a police bullet.

This is totally fucking nuts, if true - starts to look like an extra-judicial execution. Where did you hear about him being shot while restrained, droid?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
they might not want it to be, but it is. if you consider most kids arent likely to have weekly travelcards riding around london (then again kids do get discount travel rates) theyre likely to spend more time in their local area. plus a lot of kids seem obsessed with their local areas/ends now more than ever before. whether this includes trying to keep it from getting burned to the ground of course is something else entirely. they probably dont really give a shit.

My point is that they're not made to feel welcome there, so it isn't surprising that they feel antagonistic towards it. I doubt many of the teenagers who were out on Saturday give a shit about buying compost from B&Q.

There's a strange paternalistic undercurrent to a lot of this. Tutting at teenagers for burning things down per se, or burning down the wrong things, or burning down the right things but in the wrong area.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

The truth is that discontent has been simmering among Britain's urban poor for years, and few have paid attention. Social activists say one out of two children in Tottenham live in poverty. It's one of the poorest areas of Britain. Britain's worst riots in decades took place here in 1985. A policeman was hacked to death. After these riots, the same young man pointed out, "They built us a swimming pool."

Poverty, joblessness cycle
Police and local leaders in Tottenham made real progress in improving community relations in the intervening years and that's true about all of Britain. The best way to prevent crime, the theory goes, is to improve the lot of the people, then they won't need to commit crimes. But caught in a poverty and joblessness cycle, young people in many British urban areas have little hope of a better life.

So when a local 29-year-old father, described by police as a gangster, was shot dead by an officer, the response came quickly.

Mark Duggan was killed Thursday. On Saturday night about 50 relatives and friends protested outside the Tottenham police station.
Local young men, almost all with their heads covered by hoods -- known here as "hoodies" -- took advantage to indulge themselves in a favorite sport: cursing the police. This quickly escalated into a night of hurling rocks, bottles (Jack Daniels, one young man told me -- "we broke into the liquor store, drank the Jack Daniels and threw the bottles at the cops"), burning two patrol cars, torching buildings, smashing shop windows and carting off hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of phones, cameras and clothes.

The looting and rioting had nothing at all to do with the killing of Mark Duggan. That was the spark. The bonfire had been prepared by years of neglect, fueled by the anger of young men with no stake in the system, angry at everybody and quick to exploit fury at the killing of a local man, even if he did allegedly fire at the police officer first.

So now the question people in Tottenham are asking is: Will the government pay attention to the social issues underlying the anger?

And a wider question is: Would anyone care at all if there had not been violence?
 
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