Suggest to me a book or article that elaborates upon concept X
- Thread starter baboon2004
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Hahaha, so I did. I think I'll leave it for posterity.
you
Well-known member
Sup tea - you make 2 presuppositions here 1 - that your cheese men can both taste the extra labour, production cost etc... not all people do (surely you have given a great wine to someone who just doesn't know them apart at all - you ask them to say why it's different to jacobs creek and all they say is, 'uh, yeah, it's nice too'). 2 - A 'better product' - your better product is not the next mans better product. 'Better' is a subjective relativity - it is better than the other options only along the lines of the buyers uniquely projected criteria.
If you went shopping with some chelsea mum (by chance, she hasn't hired your expertise for the outing), and (for examples sake let say you are an independent cheese reviewer, taster, whatever) she was looking for a good cheddar you could explain that cheese A is better than cheese B because of X, Y and Z production criteria, it's more artisanal, better milk, better ageing etc etc etc - she may well turn around and say 'yeah but Nigella uses this, so this is better' - because her projected values are different from yours, she projects brand, reputation and celebrity you project (rightly so imo with cheeses) more empirical shit like manufacturing, production values etc.
It's a bit like selling me a 'better' car because it's an italian 6 litre sports car - when actually my values are ground clearance, 4 wheel drive and space for a few sheep.
If you went shopping with some chelsea mum (by chance, she hasn't hired your expertise for the outing), and (for examples sake let say you are an independent cheese reviewer, taster, whatever) she was looking for a good cheddar you could explain that cheese A is better than cheese B because of X, Y and Z production criteria, it's more artisanal, better milk, better ageing etc etc etc - she may well turn around and say 'yeah but Nigella uses this, so this is better' - because her projected values are different from yours, she projects brand, reputation and celebrity you project (rightly so imo with cheeses) more empirical shit like manufacturing, production values etc.
It's a bit like selling me a 'better' car because it's an italian 6 litre sports car - when actually my values are ground clearance, 4 wheel drive and space for a few sheep.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, people have different tastes but I think people who 'know about' wine, cheese or whatever it is would universally prefer a high-quality product that's been made by people who know what they're doing, to something very cheap and mass-produced. And yes, someone who's not knowledgeable about wine may not see 'what the fuss is about' over an expensive bottle, but let's suppose he then goes on a wine-tasting course; unless there's something actually wrong with his tastebuds, he'd be then able to tell a grand-cru Burgundy from a £5 Turning Leaf merlot. And if the woman buying Nigella-approved cheddar were to do a blind taste test, she might well find there's another cheese that's tastier and perhaps not even any more expensive - in this case, the Nigella Lawson Seal Of Approval is like the logo on the T-shirt; it adds a purely psychological value that has nothing to do with the inherent quality of the product.
Another point is that there are two reasons why a given product might cost more than a comparable product. There could be a supply-side reason, in other words the first product actually costs more to produce the second, because it uses higher quality raw ingredients, has to be made by trained craftsman, has to be matured for a long time, is only made in one place rather than factories that can be built anywhere, and so on. This is why single malts cost more than blended whisky; they're actually that much more expensive to produce, but people buy them because they're a better product.
The other thing that affects the price of something lies on the demand side. This is our T-shirt, handbag or whatever that is perceived as valuable because it carries with it some sort of cachet, which is then bestowed on the person who wears/carries it. So a T-shirt might be made more 'valuable' by having a logo stitched onto it, which costs very little, whereas for a cheese to made more valuable, it has to be matured for a couple of years in a special facility with a controlled temperature and humidity, which is very expensive. So if the label in question went out of fashion, the company could still make a profit (a reduced one, of course) by dropping the price of its shirts, because it was working on a high profit margin and can still be profitable even with a smaller margin. Whereas a mature artisan cheese cannot be sold at the same price as a processe cheddar because of the inherently high cost of producing it.
Another point is that there are two reasons why a given product might cost more than a comparable product. There could be a supply-side reason, in other words the first product actually costs more to produce the second, because it uses higher quality raw ingredients, has to be made by trained craftsman, has to be matured for a long time, is only made in one place rather than factories that can be built anywhere, and so on. This is why single malts cost more than blended whisky; they're actually that much more expensive to produce, but people buy them because they're a better product.
The other thing that affects the price of something lies on the demand side. This is our T-shirt, handbag or whatever that is perceived as valuable because it carries with it some sort of cachet, which is then bestowed on the person who wears/carries it. So a T-shirt might be made more 'valuable' by having a logo stitched onto it, which costs very little, whereas for a cheese to made more valuable, it has to be matured for a couple of years in a special facility with a controlled temperature and humidity, which is very expensive. So if the label in question went out of fashion, the company could still make a profit (a reduced one, of course) by dropping the price of its shirts, because it was working on a high profit margin and can still be profitable even with a smaller margin. Whereas a mature artisan cheese cannot be sold at the same price as a processe cheddar because of the inherently high cost of producing it.
you
Well-known member
on the joust - yeah, but that's a bit of a cop out really...
(1) Subscribe to an established set of value criteria that they then project upon the product
(2) Subjective
(3) Subscribe to the same criteria of projected values as 1
(4) Yes, he will be able to tell the difference, but which one would hold more 'value for him? He would learn to identify the 'correct' values. Just because his first set of criteria of project are not validated by the establishment of the majority doesn't make them wrong or bad - just different. Like switching from Hinduism to Islamism yah?
(5) Psychological value is all we look for, if you are taught that such and such a production method is of value and you believe it then that is your psychological value - your criteria to project.
I feel that just because certain values are established does not make them good, and as value systems shift products in stasis change from ideal to rubbish - even in the fickle minds eye of the consumer. Look at music and art - you don't know who to believe anymore.
In short I just except my projections are projections and not true (nothing is) and try to meet them without being too much of a nutter about it all - whilst also being well aware that those around me may view me as wrong - my personal 'quality criteria' have shifted on a whole bunch of things that I have spent money on over the past few years etc... but that's cool, it seemed right at the time. If I ever say something is 'better' I am speaking subjectively. Asda's accountants and BDM's may well regard Kraft as the best cheese they have.....
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree - I don't have a science background, so the different approaches to reality raise their heads here.....
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Interesting stuff, especially with the cheese/T-shirt joust.
One observation I'd add is that a lot of cheaper food can in fact be 'objectively' superior to more expensive stuff, and there has been a grand tradition of ascribing arbitrary value to foodstuffs that I don't rate taste-wise at all (eg truffles, caviar). So I definitely think that cheese and T-shirts both are status symbols onto which we project. The more expensive T-shirts will often be made of 'better' material (analagous to cheese being produced by hand etc), but again, depends on your value-set as to whether that is truly better.
And I think a McDonalds cheeseburger is 10x superior to Gourmet Burger Kitchen, in terms of the actual pleasure I take in eating it.
One observation I'd add is that a lot of cheaper food can in fact be 'objectively' superior to more expensive stuff, and there has been a grand tradition of ascribing arbitrary value to foodstuffs that I don't rate taste-wise at all (eg truffles, caviar). So I definitely think that cheese and T-shirts both are status symbols onto which we project. The more expensive T-shirts will often be made of 'better' material (analagous to cheese being produced by hand etc), but again, depends on your value-set as to whether that is truly better.
And I think a McDonalds cheeseburger is 10x superior to Gourmet Burger Kitchen, in terms of the actual pleasure I take in eating it.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah sure, I mean sometimes a Yorkie bar is exactly what you want even though you know Lindt or Greene & Black's is 'technically' better chocolate. You don't have be a gourmet 24/7 just because you like nice food. And price does not necessarily imply quality, I mean those Nong Shim noodle cups are infinitely nicer than Pot Noodles, yet are invariably cheaper.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I think this is a bit different because tastes in art and music are entirely subjective in a way that, I think, tastes in food and drink aren't (obviously the latter are to some extent subjective, but they can be modified by exposure to products of a wide range in quality - I think, given this exposure and the opportunity to expand their palate and shake off whatever preconditioning they may have had, most people would eventually agree that some nice mature West Country cheddar from Neil's Yard really is superior to Tesco Value Quasicheddar, and that Chateauneuf du Pape is actually a better wine than some plonk from Blossom Hill).
Whereas you can only say one piece of visual art is better than another if you measure it against some objective criterion such as how well it represents the thing it's meant to 'be'. In which case, clearly a Titian is better than a Picasso, and Michaelangelo's David superior to Moore's Reclining Figure. But visual art hasn't primarily been about representation for well over a hundred years, so this would be a very narrow and rather ignorant view to take. Likewise, you can only talk about the 'objective quality' of music in similarly narrow terms of musical virtuosity and production values; according to those criteria, Queen were obviously far superior to the Ramones, whereas a lot of people find the Ramones fun and exciting and Queen a load of pompous stadium-rock drivel. (As it happens, I have a lot of time for both).
Well yeees, I guess so, but cheese is first and foremost a foodstuff - people have been making and eating cheese since long before shops, let alone ASDA, existed - so whatever other properties a given cheese has are entirely secondary to what it tastes like. If you want to descale a kettle, cheap spirit vinegar is better than vintage balsamico de Modena, but that's not primarily what vinegar is for. If you want to knock someone unconscious, a week-old baguette is better than a nice fresh one...
you
Well-known member
depends how cruel you wanna be ;-)
sus
Moderator
I'm in Istanbul, laid down by the rona, and I've just had my first Yorkie, so the day is looking up
Clinamenic
Binary & Tweed
mixed_biscuits
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Clinamenic
Binary & Tweed
There is a trend where people, men and women, put on these acrylic nails with a chip in them, and you can tap each others phones and give each other NFTs I think.
sus
Moderator
oh yeah our entire growth and design team has those