Conspiracy Competition. I lay down the gauntlet.

[luka]

its one of the ways it plays out. i am very resistant to letting the discussion become narrowed down to russian disinformation and propaganda campaigns though becasue its far from being the whole or even the main story imo. fascinating and nightmarish as it may be.

disinformation and propaganda and not new concepts

[DannyL]

Surely its the most active theatre for this sort of thing at the moment? Where does propaganda stop and conspiracy start? They are fundamentally intertwined. There's such a complex overlap throughout the history of the topic. All the UFO/military disinfo material for instance.

[luka]

it might be danny i dont know im not an expert i was just trying to explain some of the reasons i think the conspiracy stuff is interesting which is what people were asking me (very reasonably) to do.

if you lot think its not interesting, or its bad, cos its 'not true' then ok, fine, we're back where we started. but at least ive said my peice

[DannyL]

Well likewise really. I think it's interesting but only when you're writing about it at a critical remove (as your long post above does). Most "end users" don't have this distance and are convinced say, Robert F Kennedy (and his Syria pipelines theory) has uncovered a truth hitherto unknown to the uninformed masses.

[john eden]

What Luka wrote is great and I basically agree with Danny's replies (obviously).

I think that maybe there is a difference between Luka and I which boils down to looking at CTs from a distance vs immersing yourself in them. Obviously there are pros and cons to either approach. We both agree that CTs tell us something profound about humanity and society.

I don't think it's a question of whether or not someone has a better grasp of reality or not (that feels like a bit of a dead end). For me it's more like what tools do we use to understand the world.

And maybe as Danny has highlighted, Luka's is more of an artistic approach and mine is more scientific. If it stings or feels condescending when people bring up the worst excesses of CTs or the potential for them to cause real harm in the world then I'm afraid you're on a well worn path of artists who have tried to get right up close to the abyss. And likewise if people on the other side are painted as killjoys, people shutting down discussion etc that's hardly a new thing either.

[sadmanbarty]

Do any of the broadly anti-conspiracy theorists (which I'd count myself as) see the negative impacts you're warning of in Luka or Sufi? If not, doesn't that suggest they've found a reasonable approach to them?

[Mr. Tea]

Lol, luka wrote another rude reply to me but then reconsidered and deleted it.

I think what winds me up the most about your attitude here is that you sound like you're treating the whole question of conspiracy like an amusing intellectual parlour game, rather than something with very real consequences for real people. I don't think the relatives of the passengers on flight MH17 particularly enjoy being 'poised in ambiguity' - as Dan says, somebody fired that missile, and it is in principle possible to find out who that person or group was and their ideological motivation. Same goes for victims of chemical weapon attacks in Syria, people sexually abused as kids decades ago by MPs and high-profile entertainers, and all the other real victims of real conspiracies. All this relativism and po-mo contempt for fusty old notions about evidence and facts can only ever serve the purposes of the conspirators.

You're also totally wrong that the far-out Twilight Zone type of conspiracy theories have nothing to do with actual political and geopolitical conspiracies. I mean, to me it's just blindingly obvious. The overlap between those obsessed with UFOs, lizard people, ancient super-civilizations and so on with the extreme right is vast, to the point of it being a virtual identity in some circles. Just look at the company David Icke keeps. It's not even new, I mean it goes back to the founding myths of the Nazi party and the occult movements that it grew out of. Yes, it's 'fascinating' and 'interesting', but it is also being used for notably unaltruistic purposes by the very elites you rail against. You've admitted as much yourself, in fact, so again I'm slightly at a loss to understand why you get so worked up at me in particular when we largely agree on this point, at least.

[luka]

no idea what you are banging on about sorry

[Mr. Tea]

maybe you're just a bit dim?

[luka]

yes probably. stop ruining my thread now please

[luka]

priggish finger wagging without moral, intellectual or creative substance. as you well know.

[Mr. Tea]

priggish finger wagging without moral, intellectual or creative substance.

Aww c'mon, your posts aren't that bad!

[luka]

http://theartreserve.com/blog/mark-l...ierogi-gallery

[Mr. Tea]

OK then, in the Eco-eqsue spirit of inventing our conspiracies, how about:

Ayn Rand was actually a committed socialist and wrote books such as The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged as a joke to illustrate the absurdity of libertarianism and unfettered capitalism, but she underestimated the stupidity of the American public and was aghast when millions of people took her books at face value and thought the ideas in them were great.

[Mr. Tea]

Human beings were genetically engineered from Australopithecus stock by ancient astronauts who, while being brilliant scientists and technologists, were also ferociously litigious. Our so-called 'junk' DNA actually encodes text, representing an end-user licence agreement, various intellectual property and copyright statements and a lengthy disclaimer.