Page 2 of 32 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 471

Thread: How England Sees Itself

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,071

    Default

    Yes, well done, I was just looking at that page myself. You seem to be quite keen to defend Japan for some reason. It's pretty common knowledge that culpability for war crimes there has not entered the popular consciousness to the extent that it has in Germany. I'd be interested to hear zhao's take on this, if he comes back to this thread.

    But what is this all about, anyway? As zhao said, comparisons are largley futile. The point of the thread is not to establish, once and for all, the official Worst Country Ever. If anything, the case of the Japanese text books provides an interesting point of comparison with what pattycakes says about textbooks in Britain, doesn't it?
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 11-11-2011 at 07:43 PM.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  2. #17
    droid Guest

  3. #18
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Yes, well done, I was just looking at that page myself. You seem to be quite keen to defend Japan for some reason. It's pretty common knowledge that culpability for war crimes there has not entered the popular consciousness to the extent that it has in Germany. I'd be interested to hear zhao's take on this, if he comes back to this thread.
    Er... are you drunk?

    You asked this:

    At least, that's my (admittedly scanty) understanding of it. Anyone here know much about post-war Japan?
    I answered. You then said this:

    I'm talking specifically about formal apologies and reparations to victims of attrocities committed before and during WWII which, by any measure, fall far short of those made by Germany.
    And I provided some links detailing their apologies and the attitude in the education system, which you also brought up.

    You then say:

    You seem to be quite keen to defend Japan for some reason. It's pretty common knowledge that culpability for war crimes there has not entered the popular consciousness to the extent that it has in Germany.
    So, in the space of a few posts, your 'scanty knowledge' has become 'common knowledge', and answering your questions has become a 'defence of japan'.

    The fact is its 'common knowledge' that Japan is the only nation in the world to outlaw war, and despite the horrible crimes they perpetrated in WWII, one of the most unique features about japanese society in the postwar period is its commitment to pacifism.

    That is not a defense of Japan. Its simply a fact.

    But what is this all about, anyway? As zhao said, comparisons are largley futile. The point of the thread is not to establish, once and for all, the official Worst Country Ever. If anything, the case of the Japanese text books provides an interesting point of comparison with what pattycakes says about textbooks in Britain, doesn't it?
    What is it all about? Answering your questions perhaps? Sorry about that.

    I cant claim familiarity with japanese textbooks - neither can you. The second link I posted above contains comments from someone who went to school in Japan, and he says that war crimes were minimised or glossed over... please show me a British textbook that calls Cromwell and the subsequent pacifications in Ireland 'genocide', or describes the resettlement and detention camps in Kenya and Malaya, or goes into detailed description of the acts of the 'Army of Retribution' during the Sepoy rebellion.

  4. #19

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,071

    Default

    Droid, what I meant was I'd read some things here and there, enough to form an impression, but not enough to write a detailed essay on the subject. I hope that's not an inherent contradiction. Also I'm not denying that textbooks in British schools have presented, or still present, a biased account.

    And has Japan been pacifist since WWII out of an abiding commitment to global human rights, or because it found out at first hand what happens when you piss off Uncle Sam?
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 12-11-2011 at 01:57 AM.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  6. #21
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Droid, what I meant was I'd read some things here and there, enough to form an impression, but not enough to write a detailed essay on the subject. I hope that's not an inherent contradiction. Also I'm not denying that textbooks in British schools have presented, or still present, a biased account.

    And has Japan been pacifist since WWII out of an abiding commitment to global human rights, or because it found out at first hand what happens when you piss off Uncle Sam?
    Whats all this about anyway? Why are you so obsessed with demonising Japan?

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Whats all this about anyway? Why are you so obsessed with demonising Japan?
    Droid, FFS. Would you accuse someone of "demonising" Germany by talking about Nazi war crimes? OK, so I get that you're mirroring my comment about your "defence" of Japan, which I'll admit was a bit flippant. But even so, I think Japanese denial about the country's recent past, despite their defeat in WWII, provides an interesting counterpoint to your argument that Britain's historiographical whitewash is connected with our not having been invaded or occupied in modern times.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  8. #23
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Droid, FFS. Would you accuse someone of "demonising" Germany by talking about Nazi war crimes? OK, so I get that you're mirroring my comment about your "defence" of Japan, which I'll admit was a bit flippant.
    Yes, its a ludicrous thing to say. Thats what I was highlighting

    But even so, I think Japanese denial about the country's recent past, despite their defeat in WWII, provides an interesting counterpoint to your argument that Britain's historiographical whitewash is connected with our not having been invaded or occupied in modern times.
    I dont think you've established that this is the case at all, and I also think you've basically acknowledged your lack of knowledge.

    Maybe there is a widespread denial of the acts of WWW2 in Japan. I cant say with certainty either way. My impression is that there is a general sense of shame regarding their involvement in the war even if some details have been whitewashed. There is certainly a deep commitment to pacifism, so the practical result is a nation state that is almost unique in history in completely renouncing war.

    Now compare that attitude to Britain. The very idea that Britain has committed multiple acts of near genocide (the Indian famines of 1770, 1876-78 and 1943, the Irish famine) over the last 250 years would be laughable and offensive to most British people... in fact, the idea of the 'benevolent empire' has enjoyed a resurgence in recent years. Unpleasant acts in history havent just been minimised in Britain, they simply didn't happen or are retroactively justified.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,071

    Default

    Well I've heard of most of those things - certainly the Irish famine, the Amritsar Massacre...at school we studied British colonialism in North America, Australia and New Zealand pretty extensively, along with the consequences for native people, and the trans-Atlantic slave trade, obviously. And I only did history up to GCSE (this would be the mid-90s in an ordinary state comp). OTOH that doesn't mean that people older me were taught the same things in their history lessons, and I can well believe there still is widespread denial. If Cameron's rhetoric is anything to go by, I guess it would be optimistic to expect this to change much in the near future.

    But yeah, at least as far as my own education went, I don't remember the British Empire being painted as anthying to be particularly proud of.

    Liverpool has an entire slavery museum. I've been there. It doesn't pull any punches.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    11,441

    Default

    please show me a British textbook that calls Cromwell and the subsequent pacifications in Ireland 'genocide'
    when oliver helped you with this you ignored him. my a-level coursework was on cromwells massacres in ireland. i got the best mark in the class. (i still failed though.)
    i know a lot of japanese people. ive been to japan. a lot of my cousins have lived there. did you know until very recently japanese people with korean heritige had to carry spcial identity cards? or talk to a chinese person about japans attitud to its history if you like. i would, boradly spaking agree with zhaos charactrisation of britain although why he thinks it should be him redressing historical wrongs im not sure.....
    its disengenuouos of droid to streess teas obvious ignorance when h is the one quoting from wikipedia for fucks sake. its a pub argument, dont get on your high horse.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    11,441

    Default

    actually droid, i think that comese across as overly agressive on my part and i would like to apologise. i think you do recognise that it is a pub dbate and you ar observing pub debate rules. it is acceptable even obligatory to accuse your interlocutor of ignorance in a pub debate regardless of thee state of your own knowledge. i think i was a bit strong there and im sorry. your point about japans pacificsm is important. i agree with it, they been very well bhaved and i love the place dearly.

  12. #27
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    when oliver helped you with this you ignored him. my a-level coursework was on cromwells massacres in ireland. i got the best mark in the class. (i still failed though.)
    Sure, but what about the post-Cromwell period? The widespread ethnic cleansing, massacres and enslavement - 'to hell or connaught'? Im genuinely interested, and to be fair, although Cromwell is demonised, there is a general reticence here with regard to this part of irish history - possibly because of Republican Nationalist co-option.

    i know a lot of japanese people. ive been to japan. a lot of my cousins have lived there. did you know until very recently japanese people with korean heritige had to carry spcial identity cards? or talk to a chinese person about japans attitud to its history if you like.
    Yes, I did know that. Also their appalling treatment of the Ainu and general xenophobia. The question was not in regard to racism though.

    i would, boradly spaking agree with zhaos charactrisation of britain although why he thinks it should be him redressing historical wrongs im not sure.....
    its disengenuouos of droid to streess teas obvious ignorance when h is the one quoting from wikipedia for fucks sake. its a pub argument, dont get on your high horse.
    I can only speak of my perception of Britain's self-image through how Britain portrays itself in media and culture, which Ive been subjected to my entire life - Eccentric, civilised, slightly superior, nationalistic, mildly apologetic yet also proud it's history and relatively 'benevolent' empire.

    Obviously most of the British people I know are generally a bit more clued in.

    I also dont keep a list of Japanese apologies in my head, or claimed any special authority, I simply posted the link as Tea was apparently too lazy to google!

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    350

    Default

    watch the intro to this

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,071

    Default

    (actually droid, I found those links before you posted them, I just didn't want to be all like "hey, it says on Wikipedia..." - think luka might be onto something about the pub-like nature of this debate)
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  15. #30
    droid Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    (actually droid, I found those links before you posted them, I just didn't want to be all like "hey, it says on Wikipedia..."
    Uh huh. That single link that was simply a list of formal apologies with almost no attached editorial content, which I posted when you specifically asked for information on 'formal apologies'? I was really bringing the tone down there...

    - think luka might be onto something about the pub-like nature of this debate)
    Sure. Well done. All credit where its due.
    Last edited by droid; 13-11-2011 at 02:27 PM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •