Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That's a bit unfair, I tried to start a debate about GCSE history curriculums!
Sure, I was talking about my volley with droid.
That's a bit unfair, I tried to start a debate about GCSE history curriculums!
What the fuck?? Are you going on about this again? I let you off last time, this time I won't -- post the figures, matey.
Huh? You've quoted 50 million over the course of 250 years. I've heard figures in excess of that, approaching 100 million even, for both Stalin and Mao, over the course of a few decades.
The standard figure quoted for WWII is 60 million, over the course of six years.
And we're back to the genocide pissing contest...
HITLER TOTAL:
Courtois: 25,000,000
Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: 17,000,000
Brzezinski: 17,000,000
Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
Compton's: 12,000,000
Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that some 28M civilians and 14M soldiers died in the European War. That's 42,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another.
All of these figures are incomprehensibly high and rank amongst the worst crimes in history, but only one set are being disputed here
A great many authors other than the guys who wrote that book have produced estimates far in excess of the figures you've just given: http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm.
As far as Holocaust goes, most sources I've seen state 11 million. That's just deaths in the camps and doesn't take into account the many millions of Soviet civilians and POWs (not active servicemen) killed.
And if we're talking about combat deaths, I think it's fair to lay most of the blame for horrendously destructive wars at the door of the regimes that started those wars, don't you?
Whut? I just some figures and you're disputing them too!
Blame, culpability...not to defend those events per se, but nontheless they wouldn't have happened without those respective countries having been aggressors in the first place.
Dunno where you got the idea I'd said 200 million for the USSR and China, I said some estimates put each state at over 50 million.
Edit: no, I don't think you're anti-British, otherwise you wouldn't post on a forum used mainly by Brits. We met once, remember? I have a distinct memory of you not personally accusing me of war crimes.
‘Let me come clean,’ he wrote in the New York Times Magazine in April 2003, a few weeks after the shock-and-awe campaign began in Iraq, ‘I am a fully paid-up member of the neoimperialist gang.’
People get blacked up for the annual Lewes bonfire night celebrations iirc. There's an effigy of the pope burned, too.
when i did history a-level i was the only white boy in the class. the teacher was white too, a young blonde girl. most othr students were bengali and one of thm was a famous nutcase with a lot of legnds attached to his name, mostly acts of extreme violence. he got into a debate with th teacher about hitler. he claimed hitler had done a deal with the arabs, some kind of treaty betwen jew haters and he respected the muslim world and had no wish to attack it. he was a great man he said. i think he even stood up during his oration, to add weight to his words. she was a bit dumbfounded.
This isn't debate at all, it's just an endless round of "What about...?".
'celebrating' the Belgian 'achievment' against the African 'savages'. Pride of place went to the statues in the front hall, large gilded personifications of kindly Belgium bringing peace, IMG_2832 prosperity and civilisation to the grateful Congolese (as you see at the top of this post, in the statue of the look-alike Leopold clutching the African kids to his breast, and on the right with Mother Belgium doing much the same) -- but the early nineteenth century display of colonial memorabilia told a similar story.
Let me come clean,’ he wrote in the New York Times Magazine in April 2003, a few weeks after the shock-and-awe campaign began in Iraq, ‘I am a fully paid-up member of the neoimperialist gang.’
Blame, culpability...not to defend those events per se, but nontheless they wouldn't have happened without those respective countries having been aggressors in the first place.
Isn't this an important point that hasn't really been mentioned? People feel equally separated from an atrocity if it's far distant in time as they do if its perpetrators are far distant in space."although in that case it's quite a lot older, so it's easier to skip over it as being just a historical thing."
I said I'd heard figures that "approach 100m" for China - I think some estimates on that website say something like 75m. Has to be an overestimate but the very fact that estimates disagree by tens of millions gives some idea of the sheer scale, whatever it was.
But your hilarious joke about Britain being the "best" at imperialism is kind of what I was getting at earlier - it was global in extent and lasted for centuries - compare that to the carnage some regimes wreaked in a much shorter time and, in a couple of cases, in a single (though admittedly huge) country.
I'd be interested to see a breakdown of this and know what it means by "direct and indirect". As far as I'm concerned this is by far the most troubling figure, since it's most likely to be a feature of ongoing policy...Post war period - 10 million direct and indirect (Curtis)