The United Militarized Police States

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
i'm sure most here are already aware of these latest developments, but just in case:

1. first we have the last week passing of the National Defense Authorization Act (which, we'll see, but something tells me ain't gon get vetoed):

A provision of S. 1867, written by Senators John McCain and Carl Levin, declares American soil a battlefield and allows the President and all future Chief Executives to order the military to arrest and detain American citizens, innocent or not, without charge or trial.
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Section 1031(b)(2) "includ(es) ANY PERSON who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces."
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This means that, in the near future, a controversial Twitter post, attending a peaceful protest, or publishing an anti-Congress critique or anti-TSA rant on Google+ could land you "indefinite detention" for life, in the wording of the bill. No access to a lawyer, no access to trial.

more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...culously-scary-2011-11#comments#ixzz1fdp8nJUM
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Senator Rand Paul: My question would be, under the provisions, would it be possible that an American citizen could be declared an 'enemy combatant' and sent to Guantanamo Bay, and detained indefinitely?

Senator McCain: I think that as long as that individual, NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, if they POSE A THREAT to the security of the United States of America, should not be allowed to continue the threat.
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2. then we have


which follows reports from 2008 and earlier -- one continued story of domestic militarization.

The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011 trained to help state and local officials respond to a nuclear terrorist attack or other domestic catastrophe, according to Pentagon officials.

The long-planned shift in the Defense Department's role in homeland security was recently backed with funding and troop commitments after years of prodding by Congress and outside experts, defense analysts said.

Military preparations for a domestic weapon-of-mass-destruction attack have been underway since at least 1996 ... In 2005, a new Pentagon homeland defense strategy emphasized "preparing for multiple, simultaneous mass casualty incidents." ... In late 2007, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England signed a directive approving more than $556 million over five years to set up the three response teams, known as CBRNE Consequence Management Response Forces.

more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217.html
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youbetcha it is happening. yessireebob!
 
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luka

luka

Well-known member
you know zhao i wouldnt admit this to anyone else on dissensus but often i really do think they are preparing for something. my tendency is to think of it being a sudden enviromental meltdown or a peak oil thing or soemthing but i guess it could actually just be cos they like fascism.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
luka said:
you know zhao i wouldnt admit this to anyone else on dissensus but often i really do think they are preparing for something. my tendency is to think of it being a sudden enviromental meltdown or a peak oil thing or soemthing but i guess it could actually just be cos they like fascism.
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i guess conspiracy theories are legitimate when they become front page news...

all of this has been in the planning for 20 years or more, and i'm sure OWS added even more reason for them...
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
what i fail to understand is how the old line about the US being built on the principles of democracy and freedom can possuibly still be trotted out? it was (obviously) built on genocide and slavery, as most empires in history (all?) have been to some extent.

i haven't read much about this act, but it sounds terrifying. unsurprising, but terrifying.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That's it, it's the inevitability of it. Same thing's happening in Britain, although perhaps still a few steps behind (for now). It makes a mockery of the idea of democracy when programmes like this are so inevitable, as they're mandated by forces bigger than any one party and would be pushed through in some form or another regardless of which party is in charge. I mean, the "Coalition" doesn't seem to be terribly keen on dismantling any of the security-state apparatus set up under Blair and Brown, quite the opposite in fact.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
baboon2004 said:
what i fail to understand is how the old line about the US being built on the principles of democracy and freedom can possuibly still be trotted out?
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a classic case of people discounting what they see with their own eyes, and holding on to contradictory and nonsensical prevailing ideology as has been ingrained into their belief system.

(like those in the 16th century who lived by the beach who see ships coming in MAST FIRST every day, yet still choosing to believe that the earth is flat)
 
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B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
it's a very human trait, to fit in with society by repressing things that don't fit in with the prevailing rhetoric, and probably its most terrifying/crazy making. obvuiously holocaust scholars have writen a lot about it. I guess i don't mean i'm surprised by it really, but that not to be surprised by it leaves one with a very dim view of humanity.

Thought crimes are around the corner.

http://twitpic.com/7nu4b2#.TtuRAfe3RoU.facebook there's this too in the Uk, which presumably is genuine (partly because it's eminently dull and stupid enough to be genuine). depressing times.
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
baboon2004 said:
http://twitpic.com/7nu4b2#.TtuRAfe3RoU.facebook there's this too in the Uk, which presumably is genuine (partly because it's eminently dull and stupid enough to be genuine). depressing times.
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Yeah, it's the conflation of peaceful protest and legitimate activism with EXTREMISM and TERRORISM that's so worrying. Pretty soon 'peaceful protest' will be a total oxymoron in most people's eyes, as even the most hippyish, non-violent protestors are lumped in yet again with rioters and looters by the government and right-wing media.

I mean, when was the last time any act that could be called 'terrorism' was committed or plotted in this country by anyone operating under a straight-up anti-capitalist banner? The IRA, various al-Qa'eda associates or wannabes, the odd white-supermacist lone gunman, yes, but there was never a Bader-Meinhof tendency in Britain AFAIK.
 
bruno

bruno

est malade
i think they're preparing (rightly) for societal breakdown, mass civil unrest and so on. in that scenario, democracy is completely secondary. it's convenient in times of peace, but inconvenient when people are upset and actually want a say in the way things are run. the illusion that democracy is important to a u.s. senator, of all people, needs to be shattered, it's not. what does one need to run for the post? an obscene amount of money. what industries make the most money (besides narcotics)? the military/arms industry, finance, security and so on. these are the people who actually run our democracies, and they want their money's worth. nothing is free in life. democracy is secondary to these interests, and secondary to most of us who live lives of no consequence in these democracies, i'm sorry to say.
 
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bruno

bruno

est malade
Mr. Tea said:
but there was never a Bader-Meinhof tendency in Britain AFAIK.
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don't forget the angy brigade, tea. and king mob:

Wikipedia said:
King Mob was also responsible for various attacks on art galleries
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on a serious note, europe and the uk engaged in a war 'by any means necessary' against any groups deemed a threat, long before the current endless war nonsense. many of these groups were infiltrated, radicalised and thus comprehensively discredited by gladio-style counter-intelligence. you see the same thing with police agents provocateurs, it's an international practise that works because it takes very little to delegitimise an entire group. bomb-makers aside, the treatment of people with legitimate grievances as terrorists is a very old thing, this is not a new phenomenon.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Mr. Tea said:
Yeah, it's the conflation of peaceful protest and legitimate activism with EXTREMISM and TERRORISM that's so worrying. Pretty soon 'peaceful protest' will be a total oxymoron in most people's eyes, as even the most hippyish, non-violent protestors are lumped in yet again with rioters and looters by the government and right-wing media.

I mean, when was the last time any act that could be called 'terrorism' was committed or plotted in this country by anyone operating under a straight-up anti-capitalist banner? The IRA, various al-Qa'eda associates or wannabes, the odd white-supermacist lone gunman, yes, but there was never a Bader-Meinhof tendency in Britain AFAIK.
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as discussed elsewhere i disagree 200% with this presentation of the riots as less political than OLSX - see Rodney King riots, the French revolution and a hundred other political protests that were presented as pure looting/rioting in their homelands, but (often) legit political protest abroad even though looting (and worse) occurred as it always will when a society is massively economically unjust and people are very angry about this - but that's not the argument at hand.

Main point, as you say, is that no-one could argue that acts of violence against civilians have been committed by OLSX in any shape or form, so that legal protest is being squeezed into nothingness.

Edit: On reflection, those two points are linked. Through recent events, a lnew generation of middle class people that didn't live thru the 80s is (viscerally, rather than just intellectually) coming to see just how brutal the state is, and how little it cares about their 'liberties' when they dare to oppose it, which is something that a lot of people who've grownup in poverty have known very well for years/their whole life.

A lot of people go through life repressing the fact that there is no overarching authority that is just and equal, and they can get away with this bit of repression precisely because they never come into conflict with the law/never find themselves in a compromising situation economically or politically (being stopped and searched for no reason other than skin colour, for example). I think that's understndable (though deeply probelmatic) because most (?) people are brought up with fantasies of a confluence between ethics and the law that just bears little to no relation to how power actually operates. I know I was, and it's depressing to realise how powerless/subject to a largely amoral system of law, one is.
 
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B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
bruno said:
on a serious note, europe and the uk engaged in a war 'by any means necessary' against any groups deemed a threat, long before the current endless war nonsense. many of these groups were infiltrated, radicalised and thus comprehensively discredited by gladio-style counter-intelligence. you see the same thing with police agents provocateurs, it's an international practise that works because it takes very little to delegitimise an entire group. bomb-makers aside, the treatment of people with legitimate grievances as terrorists is a very old thing, this is not a new phenomenon.
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absolutely. it's the way it's always been. it's too easy (I certainly have let myself do this) to believe in some fiction that things used to be different, but they really didn't. All of this stuff should be completely unsurprising because it's a continuation of regular practice...that's the depressing thing.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Italy's austerity 'package': "The package approved by the cabinet in emergency session on Sunday did not contain a one-off wealth tax or even, as widely leaked, an increase in income tax for high earners. But it did restore a property tax on first homes and push back retirement ages for men and women – both measures that will hit the less well-off."

basically wealth and power make most people into unempathic cunts. there's not really any other conclusion to draw about human nature....
 
bruno

bruno

est malade
actually, the conclusion is that to effect any meaningful change, you must acquire power. to be immune to change, you need power. also, it's ideal to not go to jail, and to behave properly at all times, unless it's in the pursuit of power. this stuff is old as the hills.
 
bruno

bruno

est malade
what's funny about all this is that i'm sure we were having the same conversation at the time of the romans, or the in the paleolithic with carvings or whatever, it's neverending. i suspect that it feels more oppressive because technology has advanced so much, and there is more of a sense of the world as a whole rather than isolated worlds, but i don't think we're even near the apex of total control, in fact i think we live by and large in the freest societies man has ever seen, and are fortunate to do so. that is not to diminish the importance of the conversation, but to put it in perspective.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
baboon2004 said:
as discussed elsewhere i disagree 200% with this presentation of the riots as less political than OLSX...
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Sure, just because the people doing it didn't have a manifesto or a list of demands drawn up, doesn't mean it wasn't political, I agree. All the same, you might naively expect the police and the law generally to distinguish between people who are out causing a massive ruckus and smashing the place up - or even conspiring to commit mass murder - and people who demonstrably aren't. But this is increasingly going out the window.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
bruno said:
...we were having the same conversation at the time of ... the paleolithic ... in fact i think we live by and large in the freest societies man has ever seen
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everyone here should know that i categorically, utterly and completely disagree, and am diametrically opposed to this with pretty much every fiber of my being, and probably more or less familiar with the reasons, so i won't go into it.
 
bruno

bruno

est malade
i alternate between feeling the world is a prison and not. i won't argue that i am in total control of my destiny, because i'm not, but i also know i could live in place and time where i could not write these words freely. i don't take that for granted.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well how do you quantify 'freedom'? There is not and can never be a society in which everyone is totally free, clearly.

Yes, obviously there have been and still are many societies where people have far fewer day-to-day freedoms than they have in most modern developed countries (e.g. the USA). In some fairly absolute terms, modern China is a much less free society than modern America. But that doesn't mean appallingly illiberal and anti-liberal things aren't done by the American state all the time and it's no reason not to be very worried about developments that are further entrenching this authoritarianism.

I think what galls people so much is that while China makes no pretence to being a free and democratic society, America holds itself up as the doyen of freedom and democracy.

I know there's another argument that America is somehow actually the *most* unfree country because it's got everyone conned into thinking it's a free country - I'm not sure how useful this line of thinking is, though. For one thing, "everyone" is clearly a big overstatement. And when you take it down to any demonstrable definition of 'freedom' there are clearly plenty of countries that are much worse.
 
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