Richard Dawkins

Bangpuss

Well-known member
After reading yet another hatchet job targeting ol' Dicky Dawkins from the right-wing press, I feel a Dissensus debate about the virtues of Dawkins (and his brand of aggressive atheism) is long overdue.

So here's my two-pence worth: I like him. He's got style, and manages to demolish religious nutters while keeping his cool. Having said that, I think too often he uses examples of religious extremists doing/saying horrible things and tries to pass this off as a critique of all religion.
 

e/y

Well-known member
I remember reading this thread a while back about him and the bus campaign: http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?8369-Dawkins-Atheist-Bus&highlight=dawkins+atheist

I think he's ok generally (much more than Hitchens, for example), though I think focusing on religion as the main cause of most 'evil' in the world is quite simplistic. Also, agree with you wrt to his use of extremes to represent all religion / people of faith. And some of his hardcore followers do my head in.

I'm an atheist, fwiw.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't give one iota of a fuck about the religion/atheism debate.

Yet clearly you care enough to go to the effort of telling us that you don't care...

I'm always a bit surprised by how much flack Dawkins cops from people who are at least nominally left-wing - though I know I shouldn't be, because the assumption that any given socialist can generally be relied upon to be a secularist (whether or not they're an atheist themselves) has been invalid for some time.

I forget the guy's name, but there's that bloke who wrote a well-known piece in the Guardian slagging Dawkins off and saying he has no right to criticise religion because he doesn't understand the finer subtleties of Christian theology. Like, way to miss the point. The finer subtleties of some belief system are neither here nor there if you reject outright that system's fundamental principles. You don't need to know what Venus in the third house of Aquarius with Persil rising supposedly signifies to be able to dismiss astrology as a demonstrable crock of shit.

I think part of what leftists don't like about him is his insistence that religion is uniquely to blame for Every Bad Thing That's Ever Happened In The World, Ever - which, despite the terrible things that people do and have always done in the name of God, is clearly a huge exaggeration. It's just a counterpart to the view that capitalism is to blame for EBTTEHITWE, which is also an exaggeration.

By the bye, I mentally nominated Baroness Warsi for Dick Of The Week last week - did anyone else catch her helpful pronouncement that those nefarious "atheist fundamentalists" are WUINING ERRYTHING! and that Christianity needs to be put back in "the heart of British public life", whatever that is? Funny, I can't remember the last time militant atheists flew a hijacked plane into a skyscraper or bombed an abortion clinic. Interesting too that she's a Muslim sticking up for Christianity, but more and more these days you see leaders or high-profile followers of rival faiths (not the fundies, obviously) banding together in the face of the 'common enemy'.
 

luka

Well-known member
astrology is much more reliable than science. FACT.how will you prove this? easy. you cant trust science. one week the earth is at the contre of the universe watching the stars spin around it, next thing you know its a blip at the edge of infinite space. always changing their minds. how can you beleive anything they say? ASTROLOGY. always the same throughout the ages. astrology is brilliant.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Yet clearly you care enough to go to the effort of telling us that you don't care...

I'm always a bit surprised by how much flack Dawkins cops from people who are at least nominally left-wing - though I know I shouldn't be, because the assumption that any given socialist can generally be relied upon to be a secularist (whether or not they're an atheist themselves) has been invalid for some time.

I forget the guy's name, but there's that bloke who wrote a well-known piece in the Guardian slagging Dawkins off and saying he has no right to criticise religion because he doesn't understand the finer subtleties of Christian theology. Like, way to miss the point. The finer subtleties of some belief system are neither here nor there if you reject outright that system's fundamental principles. You don't need to know what Venus in the third house of Aquarius with Persil rising supposedly signifies to be able to dismiss astrology as a demonstrable crock of shit.

I think part of what leftists don't like about him is his insistence that religion is uniquely to blame for Every Bad Thing That's Ever Happened In The World, Ever - which, despite the terrible things that people do and have always done in the name of God, is clearly a huge exaggeration. It's just a counterpart to the view that capitalism is to blame for EBTTEHITWE, which is also an exaggeration.

By the bye, I mentally nominated Baroness Warsi for Dick Of The Week last week - did anyone else catch her helpful pronouncement that those nefarious "atheist fundamentalists" are WUINING ERRYTHING! and that Christianity needs to be put back in "the heart of British public life", whatever that is? Funny, I can't remember the last time militant atheists flew a hijacked plane into a skyscraper or bombed an abortion clinic. Interesting too that she's a Muslim sticking up for Christianity, but more and more these days you see leaders or high-profile followers of rival faiths (not the fundies, obviously) banding together in the face of the 'common enemy'.
You're sounding more and more like David Mitchell by the day. Of course I care - about how really quite boring the debate between atheists between atheists and theists is. It's two sides who's entire way of looking at things is fundamentally irreconcilable trying to have a debate - surely this doesn't make any sense. That doesn't have anything to do with the secularist/nonsecular debate though, of course secularism is worth sticking up for. They're entirely distinct issues though I think.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm not in the least bit interested in debating with theists, dunno where you got that idea.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
astrology is much more reliable than science. FACT.how will you prove this? easy. you cant trust science. one week the earth is at the contre of the universe watching the stars spin around it, next thing you know its a blip at the edge of infinite space. always changing their minds. how can you beleive anything they say? ASTROLOGY. always the same throughout the ages. astrology is brilliant.

2/10 - come on Ray, you can do better wackiness than that in your sleep.
 

luka

Well-known member
i dont belive in horoscopes but i think the zodiac is amazing. if you are going to write a novel youd be mad not to use the zodiac. its much better than any other phscyooogical 'types' theory. its incredible.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I like Dawkins. He pisses people off but I've never seen anyone lay a glove on him in terms of content rather than style.

"I forget the guy's name, but there's that bloke who wrote a well-known piece in the Guardian slagging Dawkins off and saying he has no right to criticise religion because he doesn't understand the finer subtleties of Christian theology. Like, way to miss the point."
Terry Eagleton I think - not an idiot so his argument is likely dishonest rather than inept.
Here is some of what he said in attacking Dawkins' book

For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person in the sense that Al Gore arguably is. Nor is he a principle, an entity, or ‘existent’: in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects.
Quite apart from that definition being one that I suspect ninety-nine percent of Christians wouldn't accept.... what does it actually mean? Not an awful lot really, just a retreat into a position defining God that is so empty that it can't be attacked. A metaphysical game that has nothing to do with anything least of all the religion it purports to describe.
And if that's the sophisticated argument... then we're left with mainly people saying that Dawkins is against freedom of speech or, worse, that Dawkins is an atheist fundamentalist which often comes shortly before claiming that science is just another religion. If I hear one more moron parrot that at me I won't be responsible for my actions.
So, while I'm sure that Dawkins is probably an arrogant and irritating man, as long as he keeps winning the debate I kinda feel that he's entitled to act like that. It's like when your team concede a goal and you feel the anger at watching the other team celebrate - the reason that it hurts so much is because you know it's justified, you want your team to go out there and score a goal so that you can celebrate but in the moment you probably attempt to make yourself feel better by saying "look at that smug cunt" to yourself.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
To be fair, he did make a bit of a tit of himself when he stated that he could 'of course' state the full title of Darwin's Origin of Man. And then failed to do so when challenged. After having tried to make stock of the fact that many people surveyed (on his organisation's behalf) identified themselves as 'Christian' but didn't know that the Gospel of Matthew was the first book in the New Testament.

Re: The metaphysical game (IdleRich). I think Ken Wilber stated that he is not an atheist but that his idea of the nature of God would make him an atheist in the eyes of many. But I'm not sure that's as significant a point as he thinks it is. Sikhism is arguably an atheist religion, because the God he describes is pretty much exactly what they think of as God. 99% (I think the % would be lower than that actually, but it would be high) of Christians may struggle to accept the Eagleton definition if it was put to them, but it isn't being put to them and thus I'm not sure this hypothetical game is that significant. Dawkins wants them to play this game but because he feels it would resolve itself into people becoming just like him. But it wouldn't. It would lead to people going down the Eagleton route, becoming spiritual and playing with other narratives. If they "left their church", they would almost certainly be doing this in a market-capitalist context (Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra etc).

Zizek said:
The reason for this shift of accent from religious institution to the intimacy of spiritual experience is that such a meditation is the ideological form that best fits today’s global capitalism.

Derrida said that the existential force of this demand for an absolute altruism can never be assuaged. The same is true of freedom. We have evolved to believe in our own autonomy, and the autonomy of others. Scientifically, if we look for it - we can't find it (the freedom of compatibilism is not the freedom we demand). The same with altruism if we really look; we can see that all altruism is ultimately self-referential. The religion of capitalism emphasises the existential demand for autonomy over the existential demand for altruism, and thus so does almost all 'spirituality' to one extent or another. This changes the way altruism manifests itself, which leads to the stuff Žižek talks about in 'First as Tragedy, Then as Farce'.

I probably haven't expressed myself too well here, so by all means dive on me. But I think the left-wing critique of Dawkins is that the atheist promised land he wishes to lead people to is a ludicrous fantasy, and the place he is really leading them to is somewhere far darker than he realises. Chopra and Dawkins are one!

I have been told that there was a TV programme where Dawkins had a brain scan and the 'spiritual'/7th chakra/god areas just were not lighting up. If this is true, it explains his error.
 
Last edited:

IdleRich

IdleRich
"To be fair, he did make a bit of a tit of himself when he stated that he could 'of course' state the full title of Darwin's Origin of Man. And then failed to do so when challenged. After having tried to make stock of the fact that many people surveyed (on his organisation's behalf) identified themselves as 'Christian' but didn't know that the Gospel of Matthew was the first book in the New Testament."
Well, yeah, that's pretty stupid. Not so much the not being able to state it but the claim that he would be able to do so - he would have been better to point out that science doesn't stand on untouchable sacred texts whereas Christianity kinda does (though presumably not to Eagleton).

"Dawkins wants them to play this game but because he feels it would resolve itself into people becoming just like him. But it wouldn't. It would lead to people going down the Eagleton route, becoming spiritual and playing with other narratives."
I don't think you simply state "but it wouldn't" - some people obviously do become like him, Dawkins for one.
Also, while Eagleton's view is muddled and contradictory and ineffectual, I'm sure that Dawkins would prefer that to the fundamentalism and certainty which are the most objectionable aspects of religion and which lead people to demand religious say in how society operates.

"We have evolved to believe in our own autonomy, and the autonomy of others. Scientifically, if we look for it - we can't find it (the freedom of compatibilism is not the freedom we demand). The same with altruism if we really look; we can see that all altruism is ultimately self-referential."
We haven't found it yet. I'd say the jury is still out though. Although I'm tempted to agree with you, I can't really see what true freedom or altruism would actually mean.

"I probably haven't expressed myself too well here, so by all means dive on me. But I think the left-wing critique of Dawkins is that the atheist promised land he wishes to lead people to is a ludicrous fantasy, and the place he is really leading them to is somewhere far darker than he realises."
It's a fantasty, or more precisely, it's an ideal which obviously he realises will never be attained. But I see no evidence for the claim that he's pushing people towards a darker place - is that what you mean by religious people becoming like Eagleton?
Also, there is a sense in which the societal implications of what he's doing are unimportant. There is no God, that is the truth, Dawkins feels some commitment to that truth. Even if you believe that the removal of a comforting lie will ultimately be bad for society there is a debate to be had about whether or not to maintain that lie.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Well, yeah, that's pretty stupid. Not so much the not being able to state it but the claim that he would be able to do so - he would have been better to point out that science doesn't stand on untouchable sacred texts whereas Christianity kinda does (though presumably not to Eagleton).

Or really to many people at all. Who really cares if Luke goes first? It kinda makes some sense to keep the really crazy one until last, from a narrative perspective. But whether people can remember the order is immaterial.

I don't think you simply state "but it wouldn't" - some people obviously do become like him, Dawkins for one.

Hardly the man on the Clapham omnibus though yes? My suspicion is that he is abnormal psychologically, but even if that is not the case he is mapping his own process onto others in a way that doesn't really sustain analysis.

Also, while Eagleton's view is muddled and contradictory and ineffectual, I'm sure that Dawkins would prefer that to the fundamentalism and certainty which are the most objectionable aspects of religion and which lead people to demand religious say in how society operates.

He may well prefer it. That does nothing for the left-wing critique of that position.

We haven't found it yet. I'd say the jury is still out though. Although I'm tempted to agree with you, I can't really see what true freedom or altruism would actually mean.

The jury may be out but as you suggest, it's impossible to conceive of what true freedom and altruism would mean. But we demand them. There is perhaps a third existential demand, the demand for facts - I suspect this will make you bristle but I would like to suggest that, without in anyway seeking to undermine the importance of science, there really are no facts. We demand facts, so we have facts, but in a crucial sense they are not there. As with altruism and freedom. We are all metaphysicists, though we all pretend not to be.

Dawkins, and this is not a criticism, seems to live and has lived a pretty comfortable academic existence. It is fine for him to emphasise the existential demand for facts (science) over philosophical libertarianism and altruism (religion and spirituality) - though he cannot existentially do without either completely. Nonetheless, he knows little of the lives of the people he is addressing - who need these ideals more (opium of the people, and all that).

But I see no evidence for the claim that he's pushing people towards a darker place

What would such evidence look like? What are you looking for here?

- is that what you mean by religious people becoming like Eagleton?

Well not exactly, he's another academic. They will buy crystals or get into Anthony Robbins or more alcohol or something along those lines in most cases.

Also, there is a sense in which the societal implications of what he's doing are unimportant.

From a perspective that demands the primacy of facts over altruism and freedom yes. But I suspect this is ultimately begging the question.

There is no God, that is the truth, Dawkins feels some commitment to that truth.

Again, 'there is no God' is a metaphysical statement.

Even if you believe that the removal of a comforting lie will ultimately be bad for society there is a debate to be had about whether or not to maintain that lie.

Sure, but someone who emphasises the nature of capitalism and a commitment to the existential force of altruism is probably going to be sympathetic to the structures that seek to harness and nurture that existential force.

Addendum: I suspect the existential demand for altruism is considerably weaker than the demand for freedom and knowledge, which is why it may need more nurturing.
 
Last edited:

DannyL

Wild Horses
But I see no evidence for the claim that he's pushing people towards a darker place - is that what you mean by religious people becoming like Eagleton?

This is John Gray's argument isn't it? No time to summarise right now, sorry.

I think a part of the puzzle that's often left out when talking Dawkins (that so nearly rhymes) is that his aetyhesitc stance can be seen in tandem with his work as a populariser of evolutionary biolgy - this brings him into direct conflict with Christians.

Another story about Dawkins being a bit of a knob:
http://communities.washingtontimes....m-atheism-Dawkins-Watson-feminists-Skepchick/
 

Bangpuss

Well-known member
Apologies for not seeing the earlier thread about the bus campaign, although that is a more specific point than a broader theological debate, which is what I was looking for.

All the stuff about defining God as a vague, undefined force, the creator of science &c. irritates me in the sense that the people who make that argument are doing so in the knowledge that it cannot be proved to be wrong, since there is essentially nothing to their god, other than as an intellectual construct they use to explain the currently unexplainable. And yet, when an atheist such as Dickie Dawkins argues against the existence of God, the most frequently used rebuttal is to say that you can't 100% prove it. Yet, the lack of proof is exactly what their arguments rely on.

Dawkins has never said, "There IS not God," hence the "probably" in the bus campaign. It's just that it's extremely unlikely.

Dan, I don't think Dawkins comes across as a dick in that article. The guy invited a feminist back to his room for coffee, however euphemistic that may be. So what?! I see nothing there that makes him a misogynist, any more than offering a minority who is waiting by the side of the road a lift in your car is patronising. The feminist's outrage does her movement no favours.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Or really to many people at all. Who really cares if Luke goes first? It kinda makes some sense to keep the really crazy one until last, from a narrative perspective. But whether people can remember the order is immaterial."
Yeah of course. But I assume that this is related to one of those surveys that demonstrates that Christians tend to know less about the actual important bits of their religion than atheists. The example of the order of the gospels is an unfortunate one I'd say.

"Hardly the man on the Clapham omnibus though yes? My suspicion is that he is abnormal psychologically, but even if that is not the case he is mapping his own process onto others in a way that doesn't really sustain analysis."
Well the man on the Clapham omnibus is scarcely more likely to end up like Eagleton is he?

"The jury may be out but as you suggest, it's impossible to conceive of what true freedom and altruism would mean. But we demand them. There is perhaps a third existential demand, the demand for facts - I suspect this will make you bristle but I would like to suggest that, without in anyway seeking to undermine the importance of science, there really are no facts. We demand facts, so we have facts, but in a crucial sense they are not there. As with altruism and freedom. We are all metaphysicists, though we all pretend not to be."
This depends on a misunderstanding (or at least a difference in application) of the word "fact". I take it to be a true state of the world, I think you are using the definition of a fact as a provably true statement. There either is or isn't a God - one of those things is the true state of the universe, one isn't (and one of them is therefore, I'd say, the fact of the matter). However this will probably never be definitively proven one way or another. The definition of a fact as a provably true statement says that there is thus no fact of the matter on this kind of question - and I have no problem with that, it's just that it stops too early. Call what I'm talking about fact* perhaps, I don't think you would deny that God either does or doesn't exist - maybe you would, Eagleton kind of does I guess.

"What would such evidence look like? What are you looking for here?
You said that the left-wing critique of Dawkins stems from the idea that he is pushing people towards a darker place, I'm asking why on earth they think that.

"He may well prefer it. That does nothing for the left-wing critique of that position."
OK, let me put it this way. Eagleton is an old leftie, you said that Dawkins' arguments are likely going to force people to think like Eagleton. Why should the left have a problem with this?

"Sure, but someone who emphasises the nature of capitalism and a commitment to the existential force of altruism is probably going to be sympathetic to the structures that seek to harness and nurture that existential force."
Not sure I understand this. I'm saying that Dawkins thinks that religion is a lie. I happen to think he's pretty much right and he's trying to expose this lie. Are you saying that because he's doing this in a capitalist society it will lead to more capitalism and so he shouldn't do it?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I see nothing there that makes him a misogynist

I'm not arguing that he's a misogynist. I'm just sayig that Dawkins' dismisal of her pov. - and the equivalences he draws with it - do him no favours at all.
 
Top