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Thread: Syria

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Neo-fascist might technically be more useful, but words do often depart from their original meanings to become more widely used...
    Well yeah, I mean strictly speaking Nazis per se haven't existed since 1945 because the NSDAP was disbanded then and has been universally prohibited from being refounded ever since. But clearly there are still people whose ideology is very close to that of the original Nazis and some of them even call themselves that name, so the distinction between Nazi and neo-Nazi, or between Fascist and neo-Fascist, is kind of academic (i.e. useful if you *are* an academic, and are talking specifically about the movements/parties/regimes that existed in Europe up to and during WWII, but otherwise less so).
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  2. #257
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    It prevents the same discussions over and over about what we mean by 'fascist'. A compromise of sorts so that the debate can move on to more substantial points than semantics. I have no problem calling Assad a fascist, but some people do (eg Craner), and their reasoning is not crazy.

    I don't think there's a direct comparison here with the term Nazi, given that neo-Nazis almost always (?) directly appeal to Hitler and symbols associated with the Third Reich. Hence people have less of a problem with calling those people 'Nazis'.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 29-08-2018 at 12:26 PM.

  3. #258
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    craner has been particular about the use of the word ever since he read a book
    purporting to offer a precise definition. he was very impressed by it and it became
    part of his mental furniture.

    (a mental furniture thread might be good)

  4. #259
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    obviously baboon ive been watvhing with interest as you add all sorts of therapeautic
    concepts and terminolgy into your brain interior!

  5. #260
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    Which ones are you thinking of?!

    Yeah, a mental furniture/unconscious dogma thread might be good - difficult for any of us to be objective about it though

  6. #261
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    well by definition you cant talk about unconscious dogma. i mean the conceptual framework. the formative influences and ideas.

  7. #262
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    I would be intrigued to read Craner's definition if he deigns to share it.

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  9. #263

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    theres a difference bw a nazi and a neonazi, though - and I don't think its totally academic

  10. #264

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    same with fascist and neofascist. the issue is that these terms strongly resonate with the liberal imagination and so have a rhetorical weight that can be very useful, for good or (more often) ill

  11. #265
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    fascism refers to a specific stage in the 20th century workers movement. but ultimately fascists won (and i don't mean in the democratic sense, I mean in that their economic policies were applied, as well as many continuing to serve in governments around the world or being recuperated by the state.)

    The butcher Assad may not be a fascist but he has no problem relying on red brown types and sham anti-imperialists, and his father certainly has done since the 80s.

    Looks like there is going to be genocide in Idlib. from reading turkish foreign policy they are going to try kicking the containment can down the road so that they can still have a seat at the table of the ustana piece process.
    Last edited by thirdform; 29-08-2018 at 04:17 PM.

  12. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    fascism refers to a specific stage in the 20th century workers movement. but ultimately fascists won (and i don't mean in the democratic sense, I mean in that their economic policies were applied...)
    I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on economics when it comes to defining fascism, though. You could even say that 'fascist economics' is an oxymoron, because in economic terms, there are right-wing and left-wing fascists just as there are right-wing and left-wing liberals.

    (And if the concept of a 'left-wing fascist' makes anyone here choke on their lemonade, consider that it seems a pretty reasonable description of Ersnt Rohm and the Strasserite wing of the Nazi party, or the so-called 'National Bolshevik' party that existed until recently in Russia. And the Italian Fascist state had a pragmatic mix of traditionally left- and right-wing economic policies.)
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 29-08-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  13. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on economics when it comes to defining fascism, though. You could even say that 'fascist economics' is an oxymoron, because in economic terms, there are right-wing and left-wing fascists just as there are right-wing and left-wing liberals. And the Italian Fascist state had a pragmatic mix of traditionally left- and right-wing economic policies.

    (And if the concept of a 'left-wing fascist' makes anyone here choke on their lemonade, consider that it seems a pretty reasonable description of Ersnt Rohm and the Strasserite wing of the Nazi party, or the so-called 'National Bolshevik' party that existed until recently in Russia.)
    Well, I only say this insofar as the political tradition that I subscribe to is to the left of the left. So actually I would agree with you on left wing fash.

  14. #268
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    fascism was not a break with the capital--wage labour relation.

    Yes, there was a conservative revolutionary element to it, through palingenesis. which explains why so many anti-american leftists are now knee deep in red brown coalition.

  15. #269
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    this is also why revolutionaries should never give up talking about impersonal domination at a high level of abstraction. once you start personifying things the door is opened for all kinds of dodgy shit to creep in. just look at Ruth Fischer.
    Last edited by thirdform; 29-08-2018 at 07:03 PM.

  16. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    which explains why so many anti-american leftists are now knee deep in red brown coalition.
    And in a weird mirror of this, hItLeR wAs a sOcIaLiSt has become a mantra for the American right.
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