Tim Reaper
green bay crew.
I'm here for you droid.
Drum'n'Bass 2013 (???)
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
YES. esp for the genres weve mentioned. dance, dancehall, hip-hop, basically anything that has its roots in the late 70s or around that time. strange but they all seemed to coalesce and peak together, despite only really overlapping occasionally. which is maybe what made jungle even more attractive as it basically sucked all the best bits of those genres into its own identity. maybe jungle is to blame for the declines shortly after! as though jungle peaked as it was sucking up breaks, ragga, and techno and then when it couldnt anymore, all the others fell apart (although this doesnt account for hip hop artists and dancehall producers not really liking it lol).
(and im not saying that that period when hip hop and dancehall became massively succesful as pop music was crap, it wasnt, just that i see those as almost adjuncts, after the genre's organic peaking)
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droid
Well-known member
Yeah, jungle was like some kind of meta-genre for everything good that came out of 'black' music from the seventies on wasnt it? Breaks from hip hop (and vicariously funk/soul/rnb - even jazz in some cases), vocals from house, bass and vibes from reggae/dancehall, pads from techno, attitude from everything... it was the ultimate synthesis of all these influences, exhausted in just a few years of wonderful exuberance.
droid
Well-known member
Trillhouse
Well-known member
I dunno. When you're in your teens / early 20s the music you get into has a deeper more meaningful effect on you than it's ever likely to at any other time in your life.
Does that mean that was the best time in music in general, hell no. You get this kind of opinion from older dudes who got into reggae via rock or punk or what ever, who'll refuse to listen to anything after 89 when dancehall came along and, in their opinion, ruined everything. You also get it from people deeply affected by the the rise of hip hop and it's golden era. They refuse to acknowledge that great hip hop is still being made today. I don't doubt there's people out there who hated the fact that Jungle came along and fragmented the hardcore scene like it was in 89. There were definitely people in the reggae scene who hated it. But it's all bullshit. It purely comes down to what affected you the most in your youth, and whether you're the type who can move on a celebrate the new, or would rather stay in the lane that meant so much to you. There's nothing wrong with the later viewpoint if it's something you personally hold, but you shouldn't try and force it out beyond that personal meaning.
Nostalgia for scenes you missed out on by a few years or a few decades will always have this strange emotional pull, from 60s beatniks to young kids wishing they'd just been older enough to go to DMZ. Any nostalgia is a mix of reality with a heavy dose of rose tinted glasses, nostalgia for times you never even experienced is pure fantasy. I'm much more inclined to a nihilistic punk rock kinda point of view, that it's better to let it die, than pine for something you can't change or bring back. Because the vitality that made it so great can never be recreated, but it something that can form organically from the embers of what came before, becoming something new.
Does that mean that was the best time in music in general, hell no. You get this kind of opinion from older dudes who got into reggae via rock or punk or what ever, who'll refuse to listen to anything after 89 when dancehall came along and, in their opinion, ruined everything. You also get it from people deeply affected by the the rise of hip hop and it's golden era. They refuse to acknowledge that great hip hop is still being made today. I don't doubt there's people out there who hated the fact that Jungle came along and fragmented the hardcore scene like it was in 89. There were definitely people in the reggae scene who hated it. But it's all bullshit. It purely comes down to what affected you the most in your youth, and whether you're the type who can move on a celebrate the new, or would rather stay in the lane that meant so much to you. There's nothing wrong with the later viewpoint if it's something you personally hold, but you shouldn't try and force it out beyond that personal meaning.
Nostalgia for scenes you missed out on by a few years or a few decades will always have this strange emotional pull, from 60s beatniks to young kids wishing they'd just been older enough to go to DMZ. Any nostalgia is a mix of reality with a heavy dose of rose tinted glasses, nostalgia for times you never even experienced is pure fantasy. I'm much more inclined to a nihilistic punk rock kinda point of view, that it's better to let it die, than pine for something you can't change or bring back. Because the vitality that made it so great can never be recreated, but it something that can form organically from the embers of what came before, becoming something new.
droid
Well-known member
Sure, lodsa people hated jungle, and ragga, and lodsa people hated be-bop and punk.
Nonetheless, there are certain periods in certain genres of art that are recognised as being peaks of creativity in that particular field, that doesnt mean that good things haven't happened since then, simply that the range and depth isnt as great.
Can you think of anything in dance music that has equalled jungle since? Garage comes closest, followed by the diminishing returns of grime (which was the last 'new' sound that really excited me) and dubstep.
(Reggae is most difficult. Its more a case of constant innovation and reinvention with a few fallow periods. '78 onwards is all pretty much great, tailing off from the late 90's with the odd spike here and there, and of course, before 78 we had dub, roots, rocksteady...)
Nonetheless, there are certain periods in certain genres of art that are recognised as being peaks of creativity in that particular field, that doesnt mean that good things haven't happened since then, simply that the range and depth isnt as great.
Can you think of anything in dance music that has equalled jungle since? Garage comes closest, followed by the diminishing returns of grime (which was the last 'new' sound that really excited me) and dubstep.
(Reggae is most difficult. Its more a case of constant innovation and reinvention with a few fallow periods. '78 onwards is all pretty much great, tailing off from the late 90's with the odd spike here and there, and of course, before 78 we had dub, roots, rocksteady...)
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Alfons
Way of the future
Do you have a link to this, sounds interesting?
anyone actually a fan of bad company here?it seems everyone's cut-off point is 97/98, but personally i've always loved early virus, dom and roland etc.
still a long way off total anathema like fucking noisia!
I like the odd bits of old Bad Company and the early Virus/Ed & Opt. stuff I think has aged pretty well. Neurofunk is an apt name, so paranoid and machine like but still has such a great groove a lot of the time. When Im in the right mood I can listen to that stuff for hours on end.
I spent most of the late 90's/early 00's totally into dnb, loving all the things that people are berating in this thread. Didn't properly get into older jungle until much later (through/after getting into dubstep). Going over my records from this period recently I realized how much bandwagon jumping there really was going on however. From bad company clones, to people aping liquid funk, cheap brazillian samba stuff etc, it was one trend to the next every 3-6 months, with little in the actual structure of the tunes themselves changing.
I think the scene (if you can call it that) is much more diverse but more fractured too and its more globally divided too.
FairiesWearBoots
Well-known member
I think it WAS a special time,
the 90's was an explosion of youth culture - which is the dominant culture now.
The music had such a spirit of optimism - which I think reflected the hope that young people had in the 90's. And that certainly changed in the 00's - look how bleak grime was
i miss the optimism of an uplifting piano lick over a adrenalin fueled breakbeat - that will always be a winning combo for me - like wine & cheese lol
the 90's was an explosion of youth culture - which is the dominant culture now.
The music had such a spirit of optimism - which I think reflected the hope that young people had in the 90's. And that certainly changed in the 00's - look how bleak grime was
i miss the optimism of an uplifting piano lick over a adrenalin fueled breakbeat - that will always be a winning combo for me - like wine & cheese lol
could this be to do with sampling technology and the way that had matured since the early 80's? it's certainly why i have a fondness for hip hop and dance music in the early 90's. the crate digging aesthetic of the times.
FairiesWearBoots
Well-known member
yes, samples! I still have a fondness for samples, even obvious ones, in house & hip hop
droid
Well-known member
craner
Beast of Burden
I lived in Leeds in 1996-8. There was one drum and buss night and it was called DOPE, and the name alone gave me a sense of foreboding before I even walked in. But I went with excitement and was loyal for over a year. There were two outstanding evenings during that time. One, when Ed Rush came to DJ. I was on drugs and it was my birthday, which probably helped. Second was an "old skool" night in 1996, meaning (then) 93/94 anthems. The contrast to what was being played week after week was striking: both thrilling and dispiriting. I remember most DOPE nights waiting for 'Locust' or 'Shadowboxing' or 'Still' to break loose, undoubted and increasingly isolated highlights...but it got worse as the months went on: a tinny, mono-rhythmic dirge. To add insult to injury, they hired an MC who copied MC Conrad. Listening to him over the top of increasinly boing-y, bouncy 2-step jump up was to hear a sound wither on the vine week by week. And weirdly, the club got more popular (with students, anyway). The final evening I spent there was the worst for records but also the busiest. I spent most of it in the second room where they were playing T-Connection and Sylvester songs which I could throw some shapes to. I was already having more fun in the Northern Soul and Mod clubs, but I was willing drum and bass to get better and I didn't want it to petrify.
I had a friend who was trying to make it as a drum and bass DJ. We used to talk in depth about the death of the music but then he'd go and spend all his money on it, because he had to. He wanted to be a drum and bass DJ. He didn't feel like he had a choice. I used to sense the conversation he had to have with himelf to muster some spark of enthusiasim for a new Optical or Ray Keith or Source Direct 12". He was chained to it. I didn't want to see him wasting all his money. (He eventually set fire to his flat after falling asleep over a spliff, losing his decks and all his records, and I was never sure whether this caused or saved him more torment.)
I feel like nothing made in 1994 could touch the top 30% of jungle records of that year, but there were no drum and bass records made in 1995 better than The Infamous...Mobb Deep or Only Built for Cuban Linx. That must mean something!
I had a friend who was trying to make it as a drum and bass DJ. We used to talk in depth about the death of the music but then he'd go and spend all his money on it, because he had to. He wanted to be a drum and bass DJ. He didn't feel like he had a choice. I used to sense the conversation he had to have with himelf to muster some spark of enthusiasim for a new Optical or Ray Keith or Source Direct 12". He was chained to it. I didn't want to see him wasting all his money. (He eventually set fire to his flat after falling asleep over a spliff, losing his decks and all his records, and I was never sure whether this caused or saved him more torment.)
I feel like nothing made in 1994 could touch the top 30% of jungle records of that year, but there were no drum and bass records made in 1995 better than The Infamous...Mobb Deep or Only Built for Cuban Linx. That must mean something!
Trillhouse
Well-known member
I think when you have something brand new come along and take hold, like punk did or hip hop did, or rave culture / acid house, jungle etc it's hard to better that initial intense burning of creativity. In the 80s you had; hip hop, house, techno, electro, punk/postpunk, synth music, dancehall, etc all come along at once, which is pretty amazing. The 90s fed off that initial burst of creativity, defined, developed and mixed them. The 00s sort of distilled it further, created new forms and scenes but still in the shape of the 80s bluprint. The 10s is kind of picking at the carcass some what, going back to the root of all dance music, house. But you can still get curve balls like Juke coming along with it's crazy polyrhythms in a 4/4 world.
It takes a perfect storm of technology, society and creativity coming together in this opportune moment for something like house or hip hop to come into the world. Grime had it to a certain extent, with the fact that kids could now make music with something as readily available as a playstation. Previously British hip hop had always been a rather pale imitation of America, then Grime came along and changed the game completely. It was definitely a UK thing, separate and easily distinguishable from it's American influences, in the same way Jungle was. The young guys who came up deep into grime, MCs who'd spend all day perfecting their bars, would probably feel that Grime was the pinnacle of UK Black music, in the way older generations look at Jungle or Garage.
I think it gets harder as you get older to distinguish the cynicism of age and recognise whether things will ever be able to flourish creatively in the same way they did back in the early 90s or 80s, or going further back to when youth culture first exploded. Will someone invent something that is so instrumental to that change, like the electric guitar, sampler, drum machine or synthesiser. It's too easy to give the cynical answer that, no, things will never be as vibrant as they were in the 80s and 90s for dance music. Who knows if the mighty US music scene ever create anything as fresh as it did in the later half of the previous century? It's doubtful that Jamaica will ever offer the world something as influential as sound systems and mcs again. Maybe Western culture doomed to just repeat it's significant cultural movements until they become sucked off life and meaningless, before our Chinese overlords save us from it all. Maybe this comment has gotten convoluted and way off topic.
It takes a perfect storm of technology, society and creativity coming together in this opportune moment for something like house or hip hop to come into the world. Grime had it to a certain extent, with the fact that kids could now make music with something as readily available as a playstation. Previously British hip hop had always been a rather pale imitation of America, then Grime came along and changed the game completely. It was definitely a UK thing, separate and easily distinguishable from it's American influences, in the same way Jungle was. The young guys who came up deep into grime, MCs who'd spend all day perfecting their bars, would probably feel that Grime was the pinnacle of UK Black music, in the way older generations look at Jungle or Garage.
I think it gets harder as you get older to distinguish the cynicism of age and recognise whether things will ever be able to flourish creatively in the same way they did back in the early 90s or 80s, or going further back to when youth culture first exploded. Will someone invent something that is so instrumental to that change, like the electric guitar, sampler, drum machine or synthesiser. It's too easy to give the cynical answer that, no, things will never be as vibrant as they were in the 80s and 90s for dance music. Who knows if the mighty US music scene ever create anything as fresh as it did in the later half of the previous century? It's doubtful that Jamaica will ever offer the world something as influential as sound systems and mcs again. Maybe Western culture doomed to just repeat it's significant cultural movements until they become sucked off life and meaningless, before our Chinese overlords save us from it all. Maybe this comment has gotten convoluted and way off topic.
I keep hearing people try to spark a "D&B is coming/back" story, but I don't really see enough evidence to support that yet. I feel like most of it is careful sniping combined with wishful thinking. Moreover, I feel like the concept of it "coming back" is mostly over. There's plenty of room for waves of nostalgia, but at this point, not everybody is nostalgic for the same thing. I've talked to plenty of younger people who say they love "oldschool d&b" and they are referring to post-2000 tracks that were hardly on my radar.
That's not to say that I don't want to hear good/new tunes grown out of the rich, tilled soil of d&b's history, or "new forms" of 160-180 bpm music. Because I do. I'm just not worried about saying people working in those areas means anything.
That's not to say that I don't want to hear good/new tunes grown out of the rich, tilled soil of d&b's history, or "new forms" of 160-180 bpm music. Because I do. I'm just not worried about saying people working in those areas means anything.
Trillhouse
Well-known member
man.. 94 had Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik, Ready to Die, Illmatic, The Sun Rises in the East, Resurection, A Constipated Monkey, Project Blowed, Super Tight. It's a tough one.
FairiesWearBoots
Well-known member
QFT - this happened to me, it will always be a part of me, however small.
I think that at a certain age, music does become part of you
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
partially unrelated but when i hear dj rashads i just dont give a fuck, it just makes me think of an old jungle tune (not least cos it samples juice from the early 90s), despite not sounding at all like D&B (which is what makes it better than the actual D&B songs on that new album of his), struggling to think of a specific example, but i suppose im just thinking of anything with a slow build up and film dialogue samples, like idk, original nuttah or gangsta (titles elude me - if anyone can do better, please do).
droid
Well-known member
Trace remix of babylon, probably the finest piece of music made anywhere in the universe in 1995.
droid
Well-known member
Ive often wondered if there is ANY way at all to quantify this objectively. It occurred to me that could take periods of a genre where there is a general consensus of brilliance (yeah I know, but stay with me) and try and establish what those periods have in common.
It seems to me that one good indicator would be 'innovation', or more precisely, the rate of innovation, defined by the number of new ideas (or old ideas reintroduced) and techniques that appear within a given time period. The idea being that the point where the pace of change slows and then stops, is when the music gets less compelling.
Obv, the definition of innovation is a value judgment in itself, but there are undeniable formal innovations that jungle had that has not been replicated before or since - a tempo that broke out of the 120-140bpm tyranny of (virtually all) dance music, and, deriving from that, the ability to dance to either the full or halftime beat, something that's impossible at 130, but works perfectly at 160.
It seems to me that one good indicator would be 'innovation', or more precisely, the rate of innovation, defined by the number of new ideas (or old ideas reintroduced) and techniques that appear within a given time period. The idea being that the point where the pace of change slows and then stops, is when the music gets less compelling.
Obv, the definition of innovation is a value judgment in itself, but there are undeniable formal innovations that jungle had that has not been replicated before or since - a tempo that broke out of the 120-140bpm tyranny of (virtually all) dance music, and, deriving from that, the ability to dance to either the full or halftime beat, something that's impossible at 130, but works perfectly at 160.