brand vs paxman

Dusty

Tone deaf
I really don't think anything can or will happen to the political elite until the current financial system implodes upon itself. Only when the dollar is worthless- dragging the rest of the world with it and thousands are dead from food and power riots will we see new systems grow in the spaces left behind. Things must get far, far worse before there are alternatives, and even then it may not be 'better'.

And Brand is so lazy, he didn't even have names of people more educated than himself on political change to suggest when pushed by Paxman for examples of who to follow. Yet he had just edited the NS issue that contains articles on the very subject.
 

mrfaucet

The Ideas Train
The world that fell apart at the end of the 1970s had begun to unravel much earlier in the decade, in the succession of crises that included the demise of Bretton Woods, the Arab-Israeli war, the consequent oil shock and a world-wide recession. That confused and confusing period turned out to be the dawn of neoliberalism, though it wasn’t until much later that it became clear what had happened. Now that neoliberal order is stumbling through its own succession of crises. We are barely five years into the unravelling, if that is what is taking place. At the same stage of the previous upheaval the protagonists in Caryl’s book were still labouring in relative obscurity. If you had told someone at the start of 1975 that the architects of the new age were going to be the MP for Finchley, the bishop of Krakow, the exiled ayatollah and the ostracised apparatchik, you would have been laughed at. Apart from anything, they looked so powerless. So we shouldn’t be surprised if we can’t yet spot who is going to make the difference this time round. What we’re waiting for is the counter-counter-revolution, led by progressives who have learned the lessons from the age of neoliberalism and are unafraid to make use of its instruments in order to overthrow them. Plenty have started trying. Someone will get there in the end and maybe by the end of the decade we will discover who. But it is unlikely to be anyone near a position of power right now.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n18/david-runciman/counter-counter-revolution

A British comedian who lives in Hollywood?
 

droid

Well-known member
It's a bit rich for the political class to lambast the proles for their apathy when apathy is clearly what they thrive on. Large-scale abstinence from voting is only going to perpetuate the status quo, which is exactly what they want. If large numbers of people suddenly lost their apathy and got very engaged, the result could be at the very least the re-election of a genuinely socialist, pre-Blair-style Labour government, if not a full-on revolution. So really they're blaming the public for behaving in precisely the way they want them to.

And in the way the system is designed to make them feel. Atomised and necrotised. I think it's becoming more and more acceptable to state the bloody obvious without being branded as some kind of marxist crusty student vegan.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Turnout has steadily decreased, with it being 65% at the last election which I don't feel is wholly representative. It may also show that the majority of people feel disenfranchised with modern politics.

FWIW, turnout has increased in last 2 elections from the 2001 low of 59%. http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm

I can say that the problem with politics isn't the actual democratic system, its a problem that's entrenched in the houses of parliament and its archaic structure.

What do you mean by this? The 2-party system? The Lords? Black Rod and the rest of the silly rituals?

if you look at previous revolutions, they have all failed because there hasn't been a defining ideology underpinning...someone please explain to me the motifs behind previous revolutions, russia, algiers etc

Hang on, you're not seriously suggesting the Russian Revolution had no defining ideology?
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
I just watched this to see what all the noise is about. K-Punk is posting long class war screeds in defence of this verbose lothario all over Facebook and has started hanging out with Laura Oldfield Ford, so I figured something must be up.

A lot of nonsense. Sad, really. Symbolic or in reality, ultimately meaningless. Literally a tantrum.

The word revolution is probably abused; if not, then we are talking about anarchy and nihilism, revolutions of a limited and dangerous kind. The offshoot of this “event” amongst the far-left Theory community is a new (or freshly articulated) acceptance of destruction and criminality as method, tactic and strategy because protest has failed to perform adequately. The London Riots on a larger scale is the model, here. Fine, but that is just nihilism. Take this to its logical conclusion and you have to start thinking about civil war.

Being a mild republican, I occasionally ponder the meaning of this conviction and if it can ever really be acted upon. Members of Republic, the anti-monarchy organisation, are pleasant and sensible people and never explicitly contemplate the implications of what they want. The British Monarchy would not dissolve itself. It would not be without civilian allies if it was put in the position of being threatened or overthrown. Furthermore, the Armed Forces pledge allegiance to the Queen, not Parliament, and bear arms on behalf of the Kingdom, not the Commons or the people. A republican revolution would be a genuine democratic revolution with aims and principles and clearer outcomes, but would not be un-resisted. The question then, is: is it really worth it? Who would be prepared to pay the ultimate price, which would be civil war? What would it actually achieve and lead to? These are not necessarily questions from another century.

Or: massive taxation or penalisation of big business. Is this anti-monopoly, anti-globalisation, anti-free trade or anti-business? What about alternative models to, say, neo-liberal privatised utilities? Like local nationalised models in Scotland and Northern Ireland, or the alternative model embodied by Welsh Water, a private non-shareholder utility company that is able to drive its profits back into long-term infrastructure improvements and progressive tariffs and debt write-offs for low-income families and disabled people? Welsh Water thrives in a democratic system, working with regional government, local authorities and Third Sector organisations.

A problem with these rhetorical purveyors of revolutionary violence is their unwillingness to credit (or their lack of knowledge of) progressive drudge stuff, like social policy. I was at the dinner table of a millionaire accountant at the weekend who thinks that non-means tested disability benefits should be scrapped because she decided not to claim them for her Downs Syndrome daughter, and that the Minimum Wage should be abolished because it means she can’t afford to hire said daughter on her farm and is therefore, obviously, anti-business. There are some important arguments and battles to be had at the level of parliamentary legislation, lobbying and policy design (and at dinner tables) but this stuff is, unfortunately, a little dull for some of our revolutionary warriors with a taste for the Symbolic.

There is a difference, even a chasm, between Labour and Conservative welfare and health care reform which is this: the Tories want to reform these things because they want to minimise state intervention and taxation; Labour want to reform the welfare state and NHS to save it and extend it. The rest is electoral tactics: democratic politics. The argument is with those who have lost belief in democratic politics, but they should at least be clear and honest about what they are prepared to lose and potentially sanction.

If this posturing is not simply ill-thought out or conditional then it is as root a taste for chaos, an impulsive nihilism, and indirectly (in some cases directly) anti-democratic. As far as Brand’s answers are concerned, he promiscuously veers between anger at globalisation and disillusion with the way British political parties are funded. Ultimately, in the UK context, this zeros in on Labour, who can only exist on an unstable base of donations from Trade Unions (or affiliated members) and sympathetic businessmen like Lord Sainsbury. This has something serious to do with the collapse of mass membership, both for the Tories and Labour. But Brand does not address this thorny issue outside of an airy reference to general disillusionment, although he is not honest enough to mention that this has a lot to do with a hostility to mass immigration and the welfare state, as much as cronyism and city bankers. The agenda is driven by media distortions, here. Instead, outside of revolutionary upheaval, Brand appears to be advocating a global and unaccountable technocracy dedicated to saving the planet from ecological disaster and wealth inequality. The ends may be utopian but the means are decidedly sinister.

He compares the decoration of the House of Commons to Eton and so concludes that every MP must be ruling class or complicit in a class conspiracy, which slanders the majority of politicians who have nothing to do with such fantasies. I can merely think of a few of the ones that I like, such as Ann Clwyd, Dave Anderson and Frank Field, to refute this preposterous claim without going any further into it. Many people vote for an MP, AM or councillor because they realise that it can make a real difference on a local level, but also nationally (for example, the recent vote against military options in Syria). To junk this is to junk democracy as a viable political alternative and you are then sailing into dangerous waters and this is not something to be blithe or vague about.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The offshoot of this “event” amongst the far-left Theory community is a new (or freshly articulated) acceptance of destruction and criminality as method, tactic and strategy because protest has failed to perform adequately.

I'm not sure this is fair. If protest has "failed" it's because it has been made criminal - at least, in all but its politest and most untroublesome, and obviously therefore pointless, form. It's not as if protestors spontaneously decided they had to start smashing things in order to get noticed without the state having any influence on this situation. If you can be arrested for doing more or less anything, or even virtually nothing, why not get arrested for doing something that's actually disruptive?
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
There's a difference between being arrested for protesting against a greivance and purposefully indulging in criminal damage to a building under the guise of revolutionary action, which any protester can reasonably be expected to be charged for under existing criminal laws.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Also, they have recourse to courts of law, and if they cannot afford representation, then that is an argument about cuts to and provision of legal aid, which is a parliamentary, democratic battle.
 

luka

Well-known member
The London Riots on a larger scale is the model, here. Fine, but that is just nihilism.

i think this attitude is why you are a clever man that is always wrong about everything.
 

luka

Well-known member
you think that rationalism matter, you think inidividuals and personalities are important. you think the fact that assange is a narcissit and brand an exhibitionist is important.
 

luka

Well-known member
you cant see people and events as just grass which bends in the direction the wind is blowing. the correct way to look at the riots and at brand paxman is as an indication of the way the wind is blowing.
 

luka

Well-known member
if its destruction time then you will get destruction. if its chaos time you will get chaos.
 

luka

Well-known member
all im saying i suppose is that there is a feeling, which may not be justified in you view, that a) the current tools we have are not suitable for the job in hand and b)that there has been a concerted effort from those at the top of the pyramid to roll back the gains made by the base since the end of the war. that that has gone too far to be tolerated.
 

luka

Well-known member
that global problems need global solutions, for example. your friend nomad, despite her fondness for science thought global warming was a hoax, but a lot of other people are worried that the scientists might be right. that's one thing among many.
 

luka

Well-known member
sometimes something changes and something that was previously tolerated becomes unacceptable. there is not usually a revolution or a civil war as a result, but there is a dramatic change.
 

luka

Well-known member
sometimes the correct response to an intolerable situation is a tantrum. having a fusty debate inside your own head acheives nothing becasue nobody is asking for your opinion anyway. the feedback loop is not there. the terms of the contract need renegotiating.
 
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