sadmanbarty

Well-known member
But the discussion is largely confined to hysterical wailing about how the droogs have taken over and this is a nightmare but don't worry we can put them back in their boxes, everything is going to go back to normal soon, etc, etc.

Not at all.
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm sorry you feel you can't talk about the things you'd like to talk about. Why don't we try and talk about them here. I'll try not to be hysterical.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Silly people do silly things. Always have always will. I suppose I'm more concerned with evil cunts doing evil things myself.

Evil cunts aren't going to disappear if only enough people call them evil cunts. We need an opposition, and right now there isn't one. America is even more of a headcase at the moment. It's a fucking disaster.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Evil cunts aren't going to disappear if only enough people call them evil cunts. We need an opposition, and right now there isn't one. America is even more of a headcase at the moment. It's a fucking disaster.

Opposition to Trump's been successful.
 

vimothy

yurp
At some point, the "fascists" (i.e., right-wing populists of various types) will be in power all over the place. (They're already pretty successful.) Then refusing to debate with them is going to be completely redundant. Ultimately, all it will achieve is preventing people from understanding the electorate.
 

droid

Well-known member
The US had an opposition. A progressive, left wing populist candidate with decent policies, huge youth support and a good chance of winning the presidency. He was sabotaged and stymied by the centre right and liberals.

The problem is not solely the lack of an organised left wing, though that is a issue. Its the loose coalition of centrist liberals, the right and the extreme right, all of whom despise anyone to the left of Tony Blair and who between them, command massive financial resources and have effective control of most media.
 
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luka

Well-known member
At some point, the "fascists" (i.e., right-wing populists of various types) will be in power all over the place. (They're already pretty successful.) Then refusing to debate with them is going to be completely redundant. Ultimately, all it will achieve is preventing people from understanding the electorate.

Yes, you keep repeating that. Name the taboos. What do you think needs to be debated that isn't being debated? What are the things you feel unable to say?
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
At some point, the "fascists" (i.e., right-wing populists of various types) will be in power all over the place. (They're already pretty successful.) Then refusing to debate with them is going to be completely redundant. Ultimately, all it will achieve is preventing people from understanding the electorate.

If only there were televised debates during the EU referendum, the us election and the french election.
 

luka

Well-known member
I can't help interpreting this as I vimothy think things which I feel unable to openly express within the circles I move in. Is that unfair?
 

vimothy

yurp
Yes, you keep repeating that. Name the taboos. What do you think needs to be debated that isn't being debated? What are the things you feel unable to say?

Haven't we just been discussing taboos here? An art gallery in London held a series of shows about the alt-right, and was shut down. A bookshop in Berlin planned a talk on Evola, and was shut down.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
To give an example when I see someone respond to some unarmed black geezer getting shot dead by police by saying well if they didn't commit crimes they wouldn't come into contact with the police would they? My first thought isn't to blame the tactics of BLM or to examine the actions of individual members of BLM. Not that those things can't be discussed or criticised, it's just not the first thing I'd think about

That's a very acute problem specific to the USA though, where the rights and wrongs of it are so clear-cut that I don't think there's any response you can have other than to view the police as the primary aggressors and culprits and still regard yourself as any kind of liberal, let alone progressive.

And yes, in the scheme of things, the basic fact of racialized police brutality is obviously a much bigger problem than #KillAllWhitePeople tags on twitter (and domestic violence is a bigger problem than #KillAllMen from feminists, etc.), it's not hard to see why many people who would otherwise be sympathetic are going to turned off. Plus of course the alt-right eats this stuff up for breakfast, lunch and dinner - as do the vanilla mainstream GOP/Tory right, come to that ("Look at all these crazy people Corbyn associates with, how can anyone take him seriously?").
 

luka

Well-known member
It's my bedtime. I haven't done very well here tonight but tomorrow is a new day. Night night all.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
My assumption is that there are deep seated historical, emotional, psychological and possibly even genetic factors behind the appeal of tribalism, authoritarianism, sadism etc and that the left has to go against the grain to some extent. I think it's maybe a harder sell.

You're probably right there, but it seems to be having a noticeably harder time of it at present than at some periods in the relatively recent past. Some of this can no doubt be explained by things like the automation or offshoring of heavy industry, the collapse of well-paid blue-collar jobs and the concomitant decline in the power of trade unions, which are either a nefarious capitalist plot to destroy the working class or an unavoidable fact of life, depending on your POV. But this has been compounded by many on the left, particularly in academia, having come to accept neoliberalism and globalization as inevitable and concentrating on identity politics instead, leaving a gap that Trump and the Brexiteers, charlatans as they may be, have filled simply by pretending to give a shit.
 

firefinga

Well-known member
You're probably right there, but it seems to be having a noticeably harder time of it at present than at some periods in the relatively recent past. Some of this can no doubt be explained by things like the automation or offshoring of heavy industry, the collapse of well-paid blue-collar jobs and the concomitant decline in the power of trade unions, which are either a nefarious capitalist plot to destroy the working class or an unavoidable fact of life, depending on your POV. But this has been compounded by many on the left, particularly in academia, having come to accept neoliberalism and globalization as inevitable and concentrating on identity politics instead, leaving a gap that Trump and the Brexiteers, charlatans as they may be, have filled simply by pretending to give a shit.

That crashing of the unions was indeed a capitalist plot, that was one of the main aims of Thatcher and her admirers. That identity politics were well played by Trump and the Brexiteers (and other right wing populists) should be public knowledge by now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html
 
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