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Thread: Nick Land and Neocameralism

  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    Standing up to fascism isn't "alt left" in my view. This sort of bullshit is: https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/30/...st-made-video/ You might describe is as a weakness of conspiracy theories, a post-truth aversion to facts (i.e various Corbynites I argued with who were convinced Corbyn was pro-EU) and tacit or overt support for fascism and imperialism as long as its not being carried out by the USA.
    I think the problem with this approach is that "alt-left" is now being used in common parlance as a synonym for antifa via Trump. And possibly as a synonym for Corbynistas and the trade union movement in the UK via Nick Cohen. It is pretty obvious what their agenda is - and they have a wide reach.

    So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.

    It is completely correct that conspiracy theorists, Assad supporters, anti-semites etc should be attacked. But it seems unhelpful to do that by using a term which is also being used to delegitimise the left in general ("the alt right and the alt left are the same") and anti-fascism specifically.

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  3. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefinga View Post
    *Assad the Hero
    *Ousting Gaddafi was a mistake/another incident of "Western imperialism"
    *"Globalism" (granted, certain leftists say this is another example of western imperialism, usually meaning "American imperialism" - while right wingers believe "Globalism" is some commie-covert operation to exterminate the "white race")
    *MainstreamMedia
    *Zionism*
    *Putin as another hero/"Anti-Imperialist"
    Nearly all of these issues are critiqued from completely different points of view, with completely different motivations. Lumping them all together to ascribe commonality is catastrophically lazy.

    You may as well add climate change in there as well. Its a concern for both sides too. The left sees it as an existential threat to the future of humanity which can be addressed through structural changes to economic systems. Whereas the right sees it as a conspiracy to stop them destroying the biosphere through gratutious hyper consumption - but hey, its an issue that both are concerned with so that means that left = right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Left-wing social development as per the Blair era can be acceptable, but not in the economic sphere.
    This is an absolutely crucial sentence. That's the important point with Corbyn: that he brought back leftist politics into the economic sphere. Leftist meaning here stopping to praise supply side economics and demand something left wing extrimist as re-nationalised railways.
    Last edited by firefinga; 17-08-2017 at 10:52 AM.

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    Oh, sweet irony:

    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    [My] political compass is aligned entirely around [Iraq].
    Do you have even the slightest spark of self-awareness?

    Dan has gone to some lengths in the last few pages to define his terms and to distinguish between legitimate progressive anti-imperialism and the tendency towards bigotry and authoritarianism among some people on the fringes of the left, and you're practically calling him a Trumpist.

    Edit: the term may have been promulgated initially by conservative pundits in the USA but it's also been used by the likes of BuzzFeed to describe hard-left news and opinion websites that, whatever you think of their politics, undeniably share something in common with the alt-right in terms of their tendency towards conspiracy theories, disregard for factual accuracy and contempt for the liberal-democratic consensus.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 17-08-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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  6. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.
    Agreed, makes perfect sense. 'Alt-right' is a rebranding exercise of the right, and 'alt-left' is a part of that marketing exercise.

  7. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    I think the problem with this approach is that "alt-left" is now being used in common parlance as a synonym for antifa via Trump. And possibly as a synonym for Corbynistas and the trade union movement in the UK via Nick Cohen. It is pretty obvious what their agenda is - and they have a wide reach.

    So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.

    It is completely correct that conspiracy theorists, Assad supporters, anti-semites etc should be attacked. But it seems unhelpful to do that by using a term which is also being used to delegitimise the left in general ("the alt right and the alt left are the same") and anti-fascism specifically.
    John (and Droid as well). I think it's a point of origin thing - I've mostly heard the term used by Syria activists and those who have generally Leftist views The Trumpian spin on it is pretty new i.e. this last weekend. I get what you are saying though.

    Having said I am interested in the way that new groups have emerged on Left and Right that really challenge old orthodoxies and I wonder if they are responses to similar conditions. Which takes us onto....

    Baboon: Re. the Jones article - really? Interesting. What really struck me most on reading that was how similar it was to Trump's thinking - railing against the deep state, attacking external forces rallied against him etc etc.

    More later - have to baby juggle.
    Last edited by DannyL; 17-08-2017 at 04:55 PM.

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    have to baby juggle.
    Sounds a bit irresponsible.

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  10. #323
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    There's a parallel discussion going on a friend's Facebook page about this subject, the friend being Oz, who is mentioned in the article I'm about to link to. It's by Ben Norton who is another leftist lends tacit support to Assad by making the war in Syria a game of geopoliitical chess with the US as bad guy and pretty much ignores the revolution, an aboutface from his position a few years ago. He dislikes the term largely 'cos it's directed at him as far as I can judge. Interesting bit of nomenclature history anyway. Make of it what you will. I lack the appetite to argue about it at length to be honest.

    http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-pro...syria-alt-left
    Last edited by DannyL; 20-08-2017 at 10:24 PM.

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    I just had a quick google for 'alt-left', and as far as I can tell its first use was by Sean Hannity, before it was taken up by the alt-right and Republicans generally. At the same time, I'm sure the first time I ever saw the term used was in a liberal-left publication. Perhaps it is best to discourage its use now it's been used by Trump, but prior to that it certainly had a reasonable currency as a term used by liberal leftists for authoritarian leftists.

    Ugh, I am so sick and tired of this misuse of the term 'troll'.
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  12. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I reasonable currency as a term used by liberal leftists for authoritarian leftists.
    Yes, that's how I was intending it anyway. Alt right = neo-fascist. Alt left = neo-Stalinist was one pairing I saw yesterday.

    The "regime change troll" thing is doubly screwed if you know the writing of some of the people he discuss. Can you really "troll" for a cause as complex as regime change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    Can you really "troll" for a cause as complex as regime change?
    Exactly. It just means "anyone I disagree with".
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    The other day I foolishly allowed myself to be drawn into an 'argument' (if you could call it that) about Syria on FB with some absolute nutter who I can only assume considered himself an "anti-imperialist". He earnestly described America not merely as evil, but as literally the home of Satan, drew a comparison between the modern USA and Nazi Germany favourable to the latter and then, after I abandoned the thread, spammed it with a load of blatantly partisan pro-Assad/pro-Putin disinformation, including a video by the notorious pro-Assad propagandist SyrianGirl. It's like he was going for a full house in a round of Woke Fascist Bingo.

    If the term 'alt-left' means anything at all, it means people like that.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 28-08-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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  16. #328
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    I wonder if the revelations coming out about Twitter bots (see Russia thread) are going to do anything to puncture the certainties of these people? Almost certainly not, I fear.

  17. #329
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    Trolls to the left of me, trolls to the right...

    How Online Trolls Pushing for Regime Change in Syria Helped Popularize Trumpís Attack on the ĎAlt-Leftí

    http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-pro...syria-alt-left

  18. #330
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    ....but they're real people who you can go and read and make up your own mind. Michael Weiss is author of one of the best books on ISIS, Idrees Ahmed is a contributing editor of the Los Angeles Review of Books, and very well informed on events in the Middle East generally etc etc. The reduction of their opinions to "trolling" doesn't work if you're familiar with their work as we've said above.

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