Nick Land and Neocameralism
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droid
Well-known member
The sophomoric 'who are the real fascists?" response, the calling card for well meaning liberals who rush to defend the free speech of fascists is as illuminating as it is tiresome.
Perhaps the most salient response is simply to point out the historical myopia. Antifa do not simply attack or confront anyone who they 'ideologically oppose', if that were true then every Tory constituency office and GOP town hall would be mobbed. Antifa target fascists and nazis. how do we know they are fascists and nazis? Because they explicitly espouse fascist and nazis ideas and politics.
From cable street to the street fights of the 70's, 80's and 90's, Antifa have fought against Mosley, the BNP, the EDL, the KKK, the Aryan front, white power movements, and extreme right wing ideology throughout Europe and the US, and up until relatively have been mainly successful in preventing these groups from obtaining platforms and mainstream popularity as well as defending the local people and communities they target.
I cant say I agree with every target, I certainly dont agree on a strategic level with certain black bloc tactics, but we should all be thankful they are there. They have saved lives, of that there is no question. The idea that they simply brand anyone who disagrees with them as fascists so they can physically attack them is pretty much entirely unsupported by evidence and in a wider sense the idea that fascism is something you can have a reasonable conversation with is so staggeringly naive and dangerous that it is amazing its even articulated.
Perhaps the most salient response is simply to point out the historical myopia. Antifa do not simply attack or confront anyone who they 'ideologically oppose', if that were true then every Tory constituency office and GOP town hall would be mobbed. Antifa target fascists and nazis. how do we know they are fascists and nazis? Because they explicitly espouse fascist and nazis ideas and politics.
From cable street to the street fights of the 70's, 80's and 90's, Antifa have fought against Mosley, the BNP, the EDL, the KKK, the Aryan front, white power movements, and extreme right wing ideology throughout Europe and the US, and up until relatively have been mainly successful in preventing these groups from obtaining platforms and mainstream popularity as well as defending the local people and communities they target.
I cant say I agree with every target, I certainly dont agree on a strategic level with certain black bloc tactics, but we should all be thankful they are there. They have saved lives, of that there is no question. The idea that they simply brand anyone who disagrees with them as fascists so they can physically attack them is pretty much entirely unsupported by evidence and in a wider sense the idea that fascism is something you can have a reasonable conversation with is so staggeringly naive and dangerous that it is amazing its even articulated.
vimothy
yurp
There's probably some truth in that, but it's also mixed in with self-important PR on the part of the "antifa" (here, a bunch of post-grads from Goldsmiths). The people targeted in this campaign were not fascists or neo-Nazis, but an art gallery in London, a Jewish bookshop in Berlin, and (at present) various people and institutions associated with Nick Land (such Urbanomic, who published a collection of his writings).
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
This is seemingly a more novel opinion on dissensus than I thought it would be, but for the record I'm against unaccountable mobs intimidating people into political conformity.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, well I went out of my way to point out that that's not what I was saying, but I should have known it would be wasted.
They attacked Daniel Miller/Josef K. Do you think he's either a "fascist" or a "Nazi", though? Is he even an "ally" of fascism because he questioned the shutting down of a gallery by a load of furious people who didn't really know anything about the exhibition it had hosted? It's a shame he's buggered off again because I'd be interested to hear his response to being labelled a Nazi - but perhaps his stay was so short because he knew that was exactly the response he'd get from some quarters.
And if you want to talk about history, you must surely be aware of some of the things that been done in the name of anti-fascism, such as the atrocities committed by the Soviets in eastern Europe during and after WWII - many of them committed against civilians who'd already been brutalized by the Nazis themselves. Today a similar position is being taken by Assad and his Russian and Iranian backers in their war against "ISIS". (I'll save you the bother of pointing out that the USA has an extensive record of doing much the same in the name of "anti-communism", of course.)
An insistence on seeing the world in absolute bipolar monochrome, "you're either with us or against is", is common to extremists of all stripes. You're doing it yourself, right now.
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luka
Well-known member
Josef, like vimothy, is coy about his politics, but I think you can read between the lines to some extent. I've never considered vimothy to be a dickhead though. Josef is clearly a dickhead and so are many of his opponents.
My guess would be neither are remotely Fascist but harbour opinions yer everyday liberal humanist would baulk at.
In principle I agree with Barty but equally am unable to get terribly upset when dickheads get a slap, whether literally or figuratively, all the more so when they've been asking for it.
My guess would be neither are remotely Fascist but harbour opinions yer everyday liberal humanist would baulk at.
In principle I agree with Barty but equally am unable to get terribly upset when dickheads get a slap, whether literally or figuratively, all the more so when they've been asking for it.
vimothy
yurp
On some level, this is a spat between a bunch of art students and possibly not the most pressing issue facing humanity today. That said, it's still interesting how, within one culturally influential community, discussions about fascism -- especially the populist nationalism which is a major driving force in global politics at present -- are extremely difficult, if not impossible.
luka
Well-known member
Yes, well, I'll double down on that then. despite hoping you'll grow out of some of your sillier/willfully provocative positions, I can't help thinking you are an actual human being, intelligent in some respects,self aware, often witty and with a sense of proportion and decency that stops you from taking your professed politics too seriously.
Or, to use a more traditional formulation
I'd go for a pint with you. I wouldnt go for a pint with josef.
Or, to use a more traditional formulation
I'd go for a pint with you. I wouldnt go for a pint with josef.
droid
Well-known member
Tea, has it occurred to you that this wasn't aimed at you at all?
No, I think he is deeply misguided, and I even have some perverse admiration of his willingness to defend his ideas, but on the other hand, from what I know of the gallery it was dodgy as fuck and I can understand why hed be met with hostility (and the reactions in those videos are fairly mild TBH) by anti fascists.
Wow. What a bizarre conflation of tenuously related events. Not even going to bother dissembling them TBH.
Er no, no Im not, but Id welcome any quotes you can provide to suggest otherwise.
droid
Well-known member
There are arseholes everywhere, and clearly that is extreme and unfair.
However to use your example of the unequivocal fascist - how should the Caribbean immigrant react to a neo-nazi actively agitating for their extermination? How should the Jew react to entreaties to 'get in the oven' from white supremacists? Hitler was right about one thing. Fascism must be strangled in its cradle for the sake of us all because, in political terms it is a unique evil in that it's political program is based explicitly and unapologetically on genocide.
john eden
male pale and stale
I'm confused about why some random on the internet who said that fascists should have their tongues cut out is being condemned by Mr Tea but not Brett Stevens, who inspired Breivik and then went on to praise him after he had killed 77 people.
Stevens was an invited guest speaker at LD50. Understandably some people were not happy about that.
The idea that some words on the internet and a bit of pushing and shoving outside a gallery is somehow symmetrical to the rise in alt-right lone wolf terrorism is liberalism at its most bleakly comical.
Stevens was an invited guest speaker at LD50. Understandably some people were not happy about that.
The idea that some words on the internet and a bit of pushing and shoving outside a gallery is somehow symmetrical to the rise in alt-right lone wolf terrorism is liberalism at its most bleakly comical.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well hang on, you didn't really go out of your way to make it clear that it wasn't aimed at me, it's just the kind of thing you say to me all the time and the only other person who'd replied between my post and yours was luka, and it clearly wasn't aimed at him - but if it genuinely wasn't aimed at me either then fair enough.
My point was that it's possible to go from an entirely justified position: "Fascists are the scum of the earth and it's the duty of all good people to oppose them" - to a not-so-justified position: "Arbitrarily severe violence is always justified against arbitrarily minor instances of fascism" (an exhibition in an obscure gallery most people have never heard of, as unpleasant as the exhibits may be, does not equal invading Poland) or "The target of anyone who claims to be fighting fascism is by definition a fascist" (hence the example of Soviet brutality against German and other civilians in WWII, or Russian and Syrian state violence against Syrian civilians happening right now).
I was talking about a rather extreme and graphic threat made specifically against josef k on the grounds that he is allegedly a "fascist" or a "Nazi". You said:
They certainly confronted josef k, which means you've convicted him in absentia of being a fascist, haven't you? That's what I mean by bipolar morality.
To be honest I have a hard time believing you're actually naive enough to think that no self-proclaimed anti-fascist has ever threatened or insulted anyone who is not, when all's said and done, a fascist (any more than you'd believe that no-one who isn't a dyed-in-the-wool Jew-hater has ever been accused of anti-Semitism). You even backtracked a bit on this with your concession that "there are arseholes everywhere", but wouldn't it be more realistic and humane to go a bit further and admit that a culture in which an accusation of being a "racist", "fascist" or "Nazi" is considered as good as a conviction, and therefore justification for any level of abuse and intimidation, might be problematic and perhaps very often counter-productive?
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droid
Well-known member
Fucks sake Tea, is it possible for you to imagine that a conversation of which you happen to be part of isnt actually all about you? Is it possible I was reacting to Vimothy and the guy from this very board who actually stood outside a right wing art gallery with a placard?
You get personally invested in these things, smear your ignorance all over the board and then massively overreach, leaving yourself open to all kinds of justifiable attacks and then, rather than take your medicine you screech around for a bit until everyone gets too sick of it to continue. This is followed by the nursing of imaginary wounds to your pride only for them to be ripped open again the next time you see an opportunity for revenge via pedantic nitpicking, furious misreading and logical fallacy. This is not a productive or healthy pattern.
*Dammit, I see you've edited the bit about me seeing myself as being one of 'the good people', which I have to say was fantastically hilarious.
You get personally invested in these things, smear your ignorance all over the board and then massively overreach, leaving yourself open to all kinds of justifiable attacks and then, rather than take your medicine you screech around for a bit until everyone gets too sick of it to continue. This is followed by the nursing of imaginary wounds to your pride only for them to be ripped open again the next time you see an opportunity for revenge via pedantic nitpicking, furious misreading and logical fallacy. This is not a productive or healthy pattern.
*Dammit, I see you've edited the bit about me seeing myself as being one of 'the good people', which I have to say was fantastically hilarious.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Someone on the internet said that a particular person, who is or used to be a contributor to this forum, should have his tongue cut out, as punishment for questioning the use of mob tactics to shut down a gallery.
And please, do I really have to point out that an obvious neo-Nazi is a bad person in order to avoid implications that I'm somehow sympathetic? Bit of a dick move there John, no? For the record, NAZIS ARE BAD. Thanks for listening.