DannyL

Wild Horses
I think the problem with this approach is that "alt-left" is now being used in common parlance as a synonym for antifa via Trump. And possibly as a synonym for Corbynistas and the trade union movement in the UK via Nick Cohen. It is pretty obvious what their agenda is - and they have a wide reach.

So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.

It is completely correct that conspiracy theorists, Assad supporters, anti-semites etc should be attacked. But it seems unhelpful to do that by using a term which is also being used to delegitimise the left in general ("the alt right and the alt left are the same") and anti-fascism specifically.

John (and Droid as well). I think it's a point of origin thing - I've mostly heard the term used by Syria activists and those who have generally Leftist views The Trumpian spin on it is pretty new i.e. this last weekend. I get what you are saying though.

Having said I am interested in the way that new groups have emerged on Left and Right that really challenge old orthodoxies and I wonder if they are responses to similar conditions. Which takes us onto....

Baboon: Re. the Jones article - really? Interesting. What really struck me most on reading that was how similar it was to Trump's thinking - railing against the deep state, attacking external forces rallied against him etc etc.

More later - have to baby juggle.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
There's a parallel discussion going on a friend's Facebook page about this subject, the friend being Oz, who is mentioned in the article I'm about to link to. It's by Ben Norton who is another leftist lends tacit support to Assad by making the war in Syria a game of geopoliitical chess with the US as bad guy and pretty much ignores the revolution, an aboutface from his position a few years ago. He dislikes the term largely 'cos it's directed at him as far as I can judge. Interesting bit of nomenclature history anyway. Make of it what you will. I lack the appetite to argue about it at length to be honest.

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/online-trolls-syria-alt-left
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I just had a quick google for 'alt-left', and as far as I can tell its first use was by Sean Hannity, before it was taken up by the alt-right and Republicans generally. At the same time, I'm sure the first time I ever saw the term used was in a liberal-left publication. Perhaps it is best to discourage its use now it's been used by Trump, but prior to that it certainly had a reasonable currency as a term used by liberal leftists for authoritarian leftists.


Ugh, I am so sick and tired of this misuse of the term 'troll'.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I reasonable currency as a term used by liberal leftists for authoritarian leftists.

Yes, that's how I was intending it anyway. Alt right = neo-fascist. Alt left = neo-Stalinist was one pairing I saw yesterday.

The "regime change troll" thing is doubly screwed if you know the writing of some of the people he discuss. Can you really "troll" for a cause as complex as regime change?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The other day I foolishly allowed myself to be drawn into an 'argument' (if you could call it that) about Syria on FB with some absolute nutter who I can only assume considered himself an "anti-imperialist". He earnestly described America not merely as evil, but as literally the home of Satan, drew a comparison between the modern USA and Nazi Germany favourable to the latter and then, after I abandoned the thread, spammed it with a load of blatantly partisan pro-Assad/pro-Putin disinformation, including a video by the notorious pro-Assad propagandist SyrianGirl. It's like he was going for a full house in a round of Woke Fascist Bingo.

If the term 'alt-left' means anything at all, it means people like that.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
I wonder if the revelations coming out about Twitter bots (see Russia thread) are going to do anything to puncture the certainties of these people? Almost certainly not, I fear.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
....but they're real people who you can go and read and make up your own mind. Michael Weiss is author of one of the best books on ISIS, Idrees Ahmed is a contributing editor of the Los Angeles Review of Books, and very well informed on events in the Middle East generally etc etc. The reduction of their opinions to "trolling" doesn't work if you're familiar with their work as we've said above.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Everyone and their dog these days thinks they're the 'alternative' to something and despises the execrable Em Ess Em. That, at least, is equally true of left and right.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Articulate summing up of "alt-left" currents:
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/comment/2017/8/25/the-alt-left-is-real-and-its-helping-fascists

Before the right hijacked it, the "alt-left" label was used mainly by progressives to refer to a strain of leftism that sees liberalism rather than fascism as the main enemy. It is distinguished mainly by a reactionary contrarianism, a seething ressentiment, and a conspiracist worldview.

In its preoccupations it is closer to the right: More alarmed by Hillary Clinton winning the primary than by Donald Trump winning the presidency; more concerned with imagined "deep state" conspiracies than with actual Russian subversion of US democracy; eager to prevent a global war no one is contemplating but supportive of a US alliance with Russia for a new "war on terror".
 

vimothy

yurp
Yeah, I associate the term "alt-left" with liberals looking to delegitimise non-liberal leftists -- e.g., the dirt-bag left, Chapo, etc. -- rather than with any alt-right or right wing programme.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Sigh. Have you actually understood a single word anyone's posted here for the last couple of pages?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses

John Pilger on the same bill as Peter Ford (former ambassador to Syria with strong family and business ties to Assad regime) and Patrick Henningsen, former editor of Alex Jones's Infowars.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

John Pilger on the same bill as Peter Ford (former ambassador to Syria with strong family and business ties to Assad regime) and Patrick Henningsen, former editor of Alex Jones's Infowars.

Not remotely surprising. Only last year Pilger was supporting Trump as a preferable choice to Clinton.
 
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