KAN YAY OR KAN NAY? (The Kanye West Thread)

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
1)
2) You're applying your moral condemnation of people's perceptions on to the focus of those perceptions. By that logic a woman's body is inherently misogynistic, because people are going to judge it by different standards to men.

eh? how can a woman's body possibly be 'inherently misogynistic'? MEN are misogynistic, not women's bodies.

droid is talking about the objectification of women by men in our culture under patriarchy. revenge porn is a particularly nasty manifestation of this.

am i really gonna have to actually watch this thing ffs
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
1) eh? how can a woman's body possibly be 'inherently misogynistic'? MEN are misogynistic, not women's bodies.

2) droid is talking about the objectification of women by men in our culture under patriarchy.

3) revenge porn is a particularly nasty manifestation of this.

1) Precisely, I was pointing out the flaw in the logic.

2) Germaine Greer made a good point about page 3. There's nothing wrong with having naked women on page 3, the problem is that there are barely any women on the other pages. Objectification is not inherently wrong, the problem arrises when women are viewed exclusively as sex objects. For example there's nothing wrong with david beckham being objectified in a calvin klein ad, because society knows that men (including beckham himself) aren't merely sex objects.

Besides, the women in the kanye west video are being put on par with a president, a prominent business leader, etc.

3) As I said, as far as I know there is nothing in the video to suggest anything non-consensual is going on.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
1)

2) Germaine Greer made a good point about page 3. There's nothing wrong with having naked women on page 3, the problem is that there are barely any women on the other pages. Objectification is not inherently wrong, the problem arrises when women are viewed exclusively as sex objects. For example there's nothing wrong with david beckham being objectified in a calvin klein ad, because society knows that men (including beckham himself) aren't merely sex objects.

.

whats your opinion on why society 'knows' that men aren't merely sex objects, yet not women?
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Droid, there's little 'defense' of Kanye here, nobody's going out of their way to discuss the 'merits' of what he's doing, rather the goals. Hell, most of us can't even be bothered to look at the damn thing.

I will say in regards to your "a real plus" on the Brown/Cosby analogies is that while I agree with you that they're morally condemnable as people, it is MUCH EASIER in America for them to be demonized for that behavior than white men. Or was that Johnny Depp domestic abuse/divorce scandal where his ex-wife who's less than half his age gets her name dragged through the mud, and little to no public scandal a figment of my imagination or that amazing turn of events where domestic abuser Sean Penn can sue Lee Daniels for defamation of character and win for having the nerve to infer the well-known public knowledge that he beat Madonna? Is that not a country where Birth of a Nation is a cinematic tome to make black men the most ugly of people?

I don't hold nearly the degree of leniency or patience he has with Brown or Cosby, nor do I identify with them. But I've also never been a black man in America being publicly vilified, so I can't 'get it'. Its not an excuse, nor is it a defense. But its to point to why he'd even place Cosby in such a role.

And anyway, it isn't ever just words, the same way it isn't just videos. When we support him as an artist, we encourage him in all his degrees, and few if any took Kanye to task for his misogyny when he emerged. On the contrary, he was a 'breath of fresh air from the stereotypes of rap's vulgarity', and simply because he didn't make the kind of perceived 'mindless misogynoir' records people saw in other rappers. Never mind the Workout Plan is nasty about women deep down. He's been this way for fucking ever, and he's too successful to change, and the more and more grandiose he gets, the more his negative attributes emerge. This isn't to provide an excuse, but rather just say "Well the world gave him a fucking cookie for calling women money hungry she-devils, no shit his art forevermore wasn't going to have respect for women." Its a hypocrisy of us as a society (not to say we all made "Gold-Digger" a hit single or made College Dropout a canonical classic album PERSONALLY) to say he's crossed the line at any THIS TIME when he's been rewarded for doing it at women's expense in the first place.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
whats your opinion on why society 'knows' that men aren't merely sex objects, yet not women?

Patriarchy dates back to at least the neolithic revolution, though even before that anthropologists suggest that gender rolls were defined in terms of hunting and childcare.

So in short, pretty much of every culture on earth has been conditioned by patriarchy for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of years. That conditioning persists to this day.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Patriarchy dates back to at least the neolithic revolution, though even before that anthropologists suggest that gender rolls were defined in terms of hunting and childcare.

So in short, pretty much of every culture on earth has been conditioned by patriarchy for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of years. That conditioning persists to this day.

so you know it exists and that its old but go no further in questioning what feeds it, or the implications it has for how women are represented and are treated differently than men.
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
theres a million other sexist videos on rotation you know. just watch a bit of 4music. im still not sure why this one is being singled out. this one at least has more else going for it, in spite of its sexism. and if its just that you hate kanye, again, hes not actually the only sexist operating in popular music. nor i would imagine, is he even the most popular. who knew taylor swift was so popular on dissensus?

this video actually reminds me of lars von trier, nyphomaniac in particular. or harmony korines mister lonely.
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I’m not quite sure why people are saying it’s misogynistic.

really? i'm presuming you've heard his music and read a bit about him at the very least. the video cannot be taken in isolation (remember that horrible video for monster?)- this is part of a prolonged sexist bullying campaign.

people have finally reached the tipping point with kanye because demeaning women has now become his entire schtick
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
really? i'm presuming you've heard his music and read a bit about him at the very least. the video cannot be taken in isolation (remember that horrible video for monster?)- this is part of a prolonged sexist bullying campaign.

people have finally reached the tipping point with kanye because demeaning women has now become his entire schtick

except, sorry to say, it actually ISNT his entire shtick.
an increasingly large part of it, but his whole work, music, and image is not based on demeaning women.
i think people are using his sexism - for which he does deserve rebuking - as a stick to beat him with for some greater alleged sin.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
what 'alleged greater sin' are you referring to? his use of rape culture and revenge porn imagery with the express intent to sexually demean women publically and increase his own dominance, in the name of making some sort of deep artistic statement?
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
what 'alleged greater sin' are you referring to?

im not sure. his 'arrogance' maybe? i think there is more to the hatred of kanye than him just being a sexist dolt. but it prob also doesnt help that he almost invites the hatred. he encourages it, relishes it. he wants to be hated. hes a provocateur. like LVT. or old eminem. the problem is that not only does he know which buttons to press, and how to press them, he also combines that with stuff that is aesthetically harder to disregard.

his use of rape culture and revenge porn imagery with the express intent to sexually demean women publically and increase his own dominance, in the name of making some sort of deep artistic statement?

welcome to hip hop my friend.

as for his own dominance, let us make a quick comparison.

US sales of kanyes last four albums -
3103000

US sales of taylor swifts last four albums -
21341000

never seen the monster video, but from what i read, it sounds much worse than this video.
 
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sadmanbarty

Well-known member
really? i'm presuming you've heard his music and read a bit about him at the very least. the video cannot be taken in isolation (remember that horrible video for monster?)- this is part of a prolonged sexist bullying campaign.

people have finally reached the tipping point with kanye because demeaning women has now become his entire schtick

I don't really listen to lyrics, so I wouldn't know. Likewise, I haven't read much about him other than Lou Reed's review of Yeezus. I don't think I've seen the video to monster.

I'm talking about this video in isolation. From what I understand of it I can't see the outrage. Droid alluded to the fact that the women were being sexualised and the men weren't, in which case I'd say it's no more misogynistic than the average sitcom.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
so you know it exists and that its old but go no further in questioning what feeds it, or the implications it has for how women are represented and are treated differently than men.

If we take a look around at the world today there's a fairly strong correlation between a society's open sexuality and its record on women's rights. Countries like Saudi Arabia are at the bottom, whereas 'western' countries are at the top.

I wonder if this is true historically. The 20th century has seen advances in women's rights during periods of increased sexualisation, namely the twenties, the late sixties, the 70's etc.

There's evidence to suggest that access to porn reduces sex crime. Similarly people who only had their first access to porn later in life are more likely to commit sex crimes.
 
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rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
its obv that the rise in porn, the rise in feminism, and awareness of womens rights in the last decade has fuelled a reaction to that (or perhaps the net has just made it easier for people to voice their reaction to it), which kanye (and many other artists) have somehow channeled. though actually i think its mainly porn. i can name a dozen modern artists who sound very porn-'inspired'.

this is whats really bothering him isn't it? the fact that a woman is selling more records than him.

no.
he hates anyone selling more records than him.
i doubt he would begrudge beyonce for selling more than him.
he would probably defend her, as he has done several times before.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
its obv that the rise in porn, the rise in feminism, and awareness of womens rights in the last decade has fuelled a reaction to that (or perhaps the net has just made it easier for people to voice their reaction to it), which kanye (and many other artists) have somehow channeled. though actually i think its mainly porn. i can name a dozen modern artists who sound very porn-'inspired'.

agree that porn culture is a huge factor in this.

when you say 'the rise in feminism', what type of feminism do you mean? because the pro-porn 'sex positive', 'choice' feminism seems to be more visible at the moment than the radicals afaics (see the prostitution thread to get a little idea of what i mean).
 
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