Ukraine, Russia etc.
- Thread starter Patrick Swayze
- Start date
craner
Beast of Burden
Just a few points on the fascist administration in Ukraine and their honourable Kremlin foes.
1) There is no fascist administration in Ukraine. The current interim administration -- the purpose of which is to rescue the country’s economy, return the Rada to a parliamentary system by reducing presidential power, and to pave the way for new elections -- consists of a range of parties and politicians who are only united by the fact that they opposed the Yanukovych regime, led Euromaidan and do not belong to the Party of Regions.
The PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk is leader of Tymoshenko’s Fatherland party, a mainstream party with a mixture liberal, conservative and nationalist tendencies. Other positions are filled by Tymoshenko allies, veterans of the Yushchenko party, and academics and activists like Pavlo Sheremeta and Tetyana Chornovol. No fascists here -- no Russell Brands for you, but a number of impressive people, no less. Phew. Panic over.
2) Not quite. There are indeed some fascists in the administration. Members of the far right nationalist parties Svoboda and Right Sector currently hold the posts of the National Security Chief and his deputy, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Ministers of ecology and agriculture. The creeps in these posts are extremists, no way around it, and the only positive spin you can put on this is: they do not have key or necessarily consequential posts. They have been kept from the power centre. Contrary to C4 claims, fascists haven’t filled the vacuum: the Tymoshenko bloc has. Oleh Tyahnybok has not been given a government post, you will be relieved to learn if you have followed and read Sufi’s link to the website of “Liberation.” Also, scanning the picture of Victoria Nuland and attendant caption in that article, it should be noted that the other two people in it are Yatsenyuk and Viktali Klitschko, who are not fascist leaders.
The reason Svoboda has been given positions in the government is because their role in the demonstrations grew as events became more violent. By the time Yanukovych fled it would have been suicidal to have excluded Svoboda from any new administration. This is a tragic accommodation brought about by the pace and severity of events but it is not a fascist coup d'état or a fascist government or a fascist government imposed by the West in a coup d'état. Also, there will be an election soon, and then we will see how things stand. It could get far worse, of course, but it could also get better. The Ukrainians are not a nation of fascists.
3) Neo-Nazi groups on the streets are not political parties or in government, and they were not the driving force of Euromaidan, despite the spurious smears of Putin sympathisers and apologists. They were the ugly cutting-edge of the anti-Berkut violence that exploded, under provocation and sniping, in February. At the height of the violence it was a bit like the dynamic between the FSA and the Islamist groups in Syria last year: at extreme moments you are no longer able to pick your allies, which is dangerous. The point is, of all the ridiculous slurs to be thrown at Euromaidan during Nov-Jan, the claim that it was a neo-Nazi-led revolt was probably the most absurd. February was uglier, and ended with a government with fascists in post, but also a government dominated by politicians who had been fighting for democracy and against corruption for years and were in no way, in any analysis, fascists or Nazis or far-rightists. There is also the question of fake parties and provocateurs, a prevalent Putinist tactic that bedevils the region, foreshadowed by the intriguing antics of the supposedly pro-Yushchenko Ukrainian National Assembly in 2004.
4) Ukrainian ultra-nationalists are anti-Russian because their ideology is built on a specifically Ukrainian ethno-cultural mythos which is, by definition, in contest with Russian supremacist claims. They don’t have many allies among the other European far-right parties and movements, however, who generally admire and support Putinism and post-Soviet Russian nationalism (including the BNP and Front National, both rooting for Putin right now; Nick Griffin has been introduced as “European MP in Damascus with fact-finding mission” on Russia Today previously).
Putin also has a small core of admirers among reactionary Tories and Ron Paulites, which is not so surprising given the nature of his party, regime, and its antipathy towards America, the EU, NATO, democracy, ethnic minorities, Muslims, internationalists, fags, artists, weirdos, etc.
5) Putin himself is not the exemplar of Russian nationalism, but is a potent embodiment and vessel for it. This becomes important when you look a bit closer at his party and the nationalist groups and movements surrounding it and him, from the hawks who do not believe Ukraine and Belarus are even independent entities to the Eurasianist fantasists with their blend of Soviet expansionism, neo-Nazism and pan-fascism. You can add Putin’s own import of Andropov-era KGB tactics (controlled democracy, fake parties), mafia state kleptocracy, Stalin-era Great Patriotic War nostalgia, pan-Slavism, fake provocateur Zhirinovsky, etc. etc.
When the Russian nationalists call the Ukrainian nationalists fascists they are referring to the Second World War; the Ukrainian nationalists, in response, brandish the banner of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. It’s all fucking bollocks, but the Russians know exactly what they are taking about, and they are no less nuts or neo-fascist about it than their Svoboda enemies.
6) A lot of people in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus states are terrified of the Russian military and of Putin’s secret services, and this is partly because some of them have read Politkovskaya and remember what happened to her. This is largely because they have seen it in action, at close range, with their own eyes. The Georgian war is the great precursor to this, and was provoked by its EU (AA) and NATO (MAP) ambitions and Kosovan independence.
7) You should all read Andrew Wilson, especially his outstanding suite of books The Ukrainians - An Unexpected Nation, Ukraine’s Orange Revolution, Virtual Politics - Faking Democracy in the Post-Soviet World and Belarus - The Last European Dictatorship.
1) There is no fascist administration in Ukraine. The current interim administration -- the purpose of which is to rescue the country’s economy, return the Rada to a parliamentary system by reducing presidential power, and to pave the way for new elections -- consists of a range of parties and politicians who are only united by the fact that they opposed the Yanukovych regime, led Euromaidan and do not belong to the Party of Regions.
The PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk is leader of Tymoshenko’s Fatherland party, a mainstream party with a mixture liberal, conservative and nationalist tendencies. Other positions are filled by Tymoshenko allies, veterans of the Yushchenko party, and academics and activists like Pavlo Sheremeta and Tetyana Chornovol. No fascists here -- no Russell Brands for you, but a number of impressive people, no less. Phew. Panic over.
2) Not quite. There are indeed some fascists in the administration. Members of the far right nationalist parties Svoboda and Right Sector currently hold the posts of the National Security Chief and his deputy, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Ministers of ecology and agriculture. The creeps in these posts are extremists, no way around it, and the only positive spin you can put on this is: they do not have key or necessarily consequential posts. They have been kept from the power centre. Contrary to C4 claims, fascists haven’t filled the vacuum: the Tymoshenko bloc has. Oleh Tyahnybok has not been given a government post, you will be relieved to learn if you have followed and read Sufi’s link to the website of “Liberation.” Also, scanning the picture of Victoria Nuland and attendant caption in that article, it should be noted that the other two people in it are Yatsenyuk and Viktali Klitschko, who are not fascist leaders.
The reason Svoboda has been given positions in the government is because their role in the demonstrations grew as events became more violent. By the time Yanukovych fled it would have been suicidal to have excluded Svoboda from any new administration. This is a tragic accommodation brought about by the pace and severity of events but it is not a fascist coup d'état or a fascist government or a fascist government imposed by the West in a coup d'état. Also, there will be an election soon, and then we will see how things stand. It could get far worse, of course, but it could also get better. The Ukrainians are not a nation of fascists.
3) Neo-Nazi groups on the streets are not political parties or in government, and they were not the driving force of Euromaidan, despite the spurious smears of Putin sympathisers and apologists. They were the ugly cutting-edge of the anti-Berkut violence that exploded, under provocation and sniping, in February. At the height of the violence it was a bit like the dynamic between the FSA and the Islamist groups in Syria last year: at extreme moments you are no longer able to pick your allies, which is dangerous. The point is, of all the ridiculous slurs to be thrown at Euromaidan during Nov-Jan, the claim that it was a neo-Nazi-led revolt was probably the most absurd. February was uglier, and ended with a government with fascists in post, but also a government dominated by politicians who had been fighting for democracy and against corruption for years and were in no way, in any analysis, fascists or Nazis or far-rightists. There is also the question of fake parties and provocateurs, a prevalent Putinist tactic that bedevils the region, foreshadowed by the intriguing antics of the supposedly pro-Yushchenko Ukrainian National Assembly in 2004.
4) Ukrainian ultra-nationalists are anti-Russian because their ideology is built on a specifically Ukrainian ethno-cultural mythos which is, by definition, in contest with Russian supremacist claims. They don’t have many allies among the other European far-right parties and movements, however, who generally admire and support Putinism and post-Soviet Russian nationalism (including the BNP and Front National, both rooting for Putin right now; Nick Griffin has been introduced as “European MP in Damascus with fact-finding mission” on Russia Today previously).
Putin also has a small core of admirers among reactionary Tories and Ron Paulites, which is not so surprising given the nature of his party, regime, and its antipathy towards America, the EU, NATO, democracy, ethnic minorities, Muslims, internationalists, fags, artists, weirdos, etc.
5) Putin himself is not the exemplar of Russian nationalism, but is a potent embodiment and vessel for it. This becomes important when you look a bit closer at his party and the nationalist groups and movements surrounding it and him, from the hawks who do not believe Ukraine and Belarus are even independent entities to the Eurasianist fantasists with their blend of Soviet expansionism, neo-Nazism and pan-fascism. You can add Putin’s own import of Andropov-era KGB tactics (controlled democracy, fake parties), mafia state kleptocracy, Stalin-era Great Patriotic War nostalgia, pan-Slavism, fake provocateur Zhirinovsky, etc. etc.
When the Russian nationalists call the Ukrainian nationalists fascists they are referring to the Second World War; the Ukrainian nationalists, in response, brandish the banner of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. It’s all fucking bollocks, but the Russians know exactly what they are taking about, and they are no less nuts or neo-fascist about it than their Svoboda enemies.
6) A lot of people in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus states are terrified of the Russian military and of Putin’s secret services, and this is partly because some of them have read Politkovskaya and remember what happened to her. This is largely because they have seen it in action, at close range, with their own eyes. The Georgian war is the great precursor to this, and was provoked by its EU (AA) and NATO (MAP) ambitions and Kosovan independence.
7) You should all read Andrew Wilson, especially his outstanding suite of books The Ukrainians - An Unexpected Nation, Ukraine’s Orange Revolution, Virtual Politics - Faking Democracy in the Post-Soviet World and Belarus - The Last European Dictatorship.
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Sectionfive
bandwagon house
for goodness sake
This is a good read on Svoboda or where to next
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government
Video of them manhandling some TV exec going around yesterday. I don't think we should pay any less attention to far-right involvement tbh
This is also quite interesting on that Wahl resignation
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item..._stage_managed_liz_wahls_resignation_20140319
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craner
Beast of Burden
I know Oren Kessler a little bit and he is quite good, but you ought to know that he is hardline pro-Israel and works at the Henry Jackson Society. His focus on global anti-semitism is certainly not off-beam, however there are a clutch of fundamental mistakes, slantings and ommisions in that article which, as much as anything else quoted, tip the balance in RT's direction.
Speaking of which, a plot devised by Liz Wahl and The Foreign Policy Initiative sounds really cool and interesting but, sadly, I suspect it's a total bollocks. If not, then well done, everybody, good work, etc.. It shows much more initiative than the U.S. government.
Speaking of which, a plot devised by Liz Wahl and The Foreign Policy Initiative sounds really cool and interesting but, sadly, I suspect it's a total bollocks. If not, then well done, everybody, good work, etc.. It shows much more initiative than the U.S. government.
So is Putin top dog, the unassailable, capo di tutti capi, or are there others pulling his strings?
crackerjack
Well-known member
crackerjack
Well-known member
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
If it is a hoax, that'd make it a sort of inverse Protocols, right?
craner
Beast of Burden
I just found this early jihad against Putin propaganda that I had completely forgotten writing. It shows you how long all of this had been in preparation.
The tragic thing is, Russia is now winning this ideological war.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Has the front line actually moved significantly in, say, the last year or so? Russia is still losing men at a horrific rate as far as I know, and that can't go on forever, although of course Ukraine is suffering big losses too, and they're outnumbered by Russians something like 3:1. (Edit: more than 4:1, since so many Ukrainians have fled, I think.)
I suppose the picture could change drastically in November if Trump wins.
version
Well-known member
"Russia took full control of devastated Avdiivka after Kyiv's troops withdrew over the weekend, handing the Kremlin its biggest battlefield advance since capturing the city of Bakhmut in May."
"Avdiivka's fall was the clearest sign the tide of the war has turned in Russia's favour... The capture of Avdiivka pushes Ukrainian forces further from the Russian-held bastion city of Donetsk... "