the Afro-American Roots of Kraftwerk
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
on the money.
"complex network", "hybrid beast" - while these claims are valid to an extent, they are more often used to deny the foundational and primary influences from Afro-America, and ultimately Africa, on all modern pop and dance music.
See, this is exactly the kind of white washing which is pandemic and perfectly exemplifies an inside-out structurally Eurocentric view of history.
Please locate the "12 tone" scale in the following classic sound collage (Alan Lomax), comparing traditional vocal music from Africa and vocal music from the Delta region of the US, alternating, line by line, between American Blues and Senegalese singing:
And after watching that, tell me how the blues is a "hybrid beast", and no more African than European.
thanks for that! will ch ch chek it
any of it online? my subscription ran out a few years ago...
philblackpool
gamelanstep
Yeah there's loads of bitching underneath it 
it is quite understandable that Europeans try to deny the predominantly black, primarily African and Afro-American foundation of modern pop and dance music.
Europeans come from cultures which spent 1000 years condemning rhythm based music as "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes", in pursuit of cerebral harmonies, "music of the spheres". Cultures in which the only respectable form of dancing was as spectacle rather than participatory communal activity; cultures where music is to be enjoyed sitting down, in quiet contemplation; cultures where hip movements were, and still are, considered lewd, disgusting, and offensive. But now, 100 years since the arrival of jazz, white people find themselves in a world dominated by rhythmic music made for social dancing -- of course they would try to claim that these things are also, EQUALLY European as much as it is anything else.
Especially modern Germany: there was no German youth culture to speak of in the post-war eras, as Deutschland imported everything from jazz to rock to disco, until the largely ignored at home Kraut Rock movement gave birth, almost accidentally, to Kraftwerk's elektro-pop. Now Germans want to lay claim to techno culture as, if not entirely, as much theirs as belonging to anyone else.
I live in Germany, play often in German clubs, tour often within the country, and talk often to German clubbers. The view that techno is predominantly European, and have nearly NOTHING to do with Africa, is prevalent. Only the serious heads who know a bit about music and the world will acknowledge the deep and direct connection of hypnotic, trance inducing rhythms and prolonged social dancing, to African cultures. Only people who know a bit about history realizes that these things were not allowed to flourish in Europe, but rather discouraged and looked down upon, until the arrival of African American music during the 20th Century.
My perspective on all this is neutral, or at least much more neutral than blacks or whites, because i come from the Far East, removed from both the historical racial dynamics and baggage of the western world, as well as hearing modern music with fresh ears, with an unbiased point of view, having grown up without any scene affiliations.
Europeans come from cultures which spent 1000 years condemning rhythm based music as "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes", in pursuit of cerebral harmonies, "music of the spheres". Cultures in which the only respectable form of dancing was as spectacle rather than participatory communal activity; cultures where music is to be enjoyed sitting down, in quiet contemplation; cultures where hip movements were, and still are, considered lewd, disgusting, and offensive. But now, 100 years since the arrival of jazz, white people find themselves in a world dominated by rhythmic music made for social dancing -- of course they would try to claim that these things are also, EQUALLY European as much as it is anything else.
Especially modern Germany: there was no German youth culture to speak of in the post-war eras, as Deutschland imported everything from jazz to rock to disco, until the largely ignored at home Kraut Rock movement gave birth, almost accidentally, to Kraftwerk's elektro-pop. Now Germans want to lay claim to techno culture as, if not entirely, as much theirs as belonging to anyone else.
I live in Germany, play often in German clubs, tour often within the country, and talk often to German clubbers. The view that techno is predominantly European, and have nearly NOTHING to do with Africa, is prevalent. Only the serious heads who know a bit about music and the world will acknowledge the deep and direct connection of hypnotic, trance inducing rhythms and prolonged social dancing, to African cultures. Only people who know a bit about history realizes that these things were not allowed to flourish in Europe, but rather discouraged and looked down upon, until the arrival of African American music during the 20th Century.
My perspective on all this is neutral, or at least much more neutral than blacks or whites, because i come from the Far East, removed from both the historical racial dynamics and baggage of the western world, as well as hearing modern music with fresh ears, with an unbiased point of view, having grown up without any scene affiliations.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
You have an excellent point, there is absolutely no tradition of dancing in Europe. Well, apart from flamenco and polka. And apart from the Scottish/Irish céilidh and Welsh/Breton folk dancing. And morris dancing and molly dancing*. And the literally hundreds of traditional Greek dances. And the traditional dances of Iberia, France, Germany, Scandinavia, the Balkans and central and eastern Europe. Apart from all that, excellent point.
Come on, people have called you out on this before. The narrative you're spinning of stiff, uptight, erotophobic whites having to be shown how to boog-ay by sexy, groovy, uninhibited blacks is exactly the same narrative that white racists, particularly in America, have been spinning since forever. All you've done is reverse the value judgement.
Heh, yeah, if you say so.
*not what it sounds like
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I did not say rhythm based music did not exist in Europe, i said:
I did not say social dancing did not exist in Europe, i said:
These cultural differences are irrefutable. just look at any dance floor even today in Europe, and compare with, say Ghana: white Europeans ARE stiff. There are virtually ZERO hip movements on German dance floors, and a lot of pogoing and fist pumping.
There are no reverse PC bullshit that can change these realities.
I did not say social dancing did not exist in Europe, i said:
These cultural differences are irrefutable. just look at any dance floor even today in Europe, and compare with, say Ghana: white Europeans ARE stiff. There are virtually ZERO hip movements on German dance floors, and a lot of pogoing and fist pumping.
There are no reverse PC bullshit that can change these realities.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, and you're still wrong. You're talking as if an attitude that may well have been prevalent among the upper classes in some countries in the 19th century was the norm across the whole continent for the whole of history until the last century. Which is total crap. Most people in Europe, for most of history, did not think dancing was wrong and dirty. If they had, there wouldn't have been a tradition of participatory dance in the first place.
Still can't quite work out exactly how your anecdotal observations of white Germans dancing to techno in clubs in 21st century Berlin makes you an expert on the history of European dance.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
And I have to laugh at accusations of "dishonest tactics" from the man whose first, second, third, fourth and fifth rhetorical resort is to accuse anyone who disagrees with him - which, sooner or later, is everyone - of "racism".
Dunno why I bothered posting in this thread, I knew it'd only be the 5,000th iteration of the same old drum you always beat. No doubt to a mystically funky syncopated riddim my poor pale honky ass can't hope to understand.
Dunno why I bothered posting in this thread, I knew it'd only be the 5,000th iteration of the same old drum you always beat. No doubt to a mystically funky syncopated riddim my poor pale honky ass can't hope to understand.
In Europe:
"rhythm based music (was largely perceived to be) "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes"
"the only respectable form of dancing was as spectacle rather than participatory communal activity"
"(the musical establishment) condemned rhythm based music as "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes"
-- these things are very well documented by a great number of historians, and well accepted by scholars world wide, and sorry to disappoint you, but not really up for debate.
"rhythm based music (was largely perceived to be) "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes"
"the only respectable form of dancing was as spectacle rather than participatory communal activity"
"(the musical establishment) condemned rhythm based music as "animalistic" and "primitive", "characteristic of the lower classes"
-- these things are very well documented by a great number of historians, and well accepted by scholars world wide, and sorry to disappoint you, but not really up for debate.
crackerjack
Well-known member
So it was characteristic of the class that the overwhelming majority of people belonged to?
if you are suggesting that European traditions focused on the development of rhythm in music just as extensively, and social dancing was every bit as important an activity, as in cultures from the African continent, might i suggest that no, you really should not be posting in this thread, and would do better sticking to topics about which you at least have some knowledge.
crackerjack
Well-known member
I didn't suggest either of those things. If you can't answer the question implicit in my post, just say so. Btw, you've used lots of quotemarks there - who are you quoting exactly?
False.
Rhythm focused music was PERCEIVED, by the establishment, by cultural norms in Europe, to be characteristic of primitives, the uneducated, the ignorant, the under classes, and the animal kingdom. Thus development of music based primarily on rhythm was discouraged.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
It's not about "reverse racism" and being nasty to the poor old white Europeans. It's about "romantic racism", and building up - from the opposite angle - exactly the same dichotomy of simple, instinctive Africans versus rational, modern Europeans that old-style racists use to justify colonialism.
you are demonstrating very clearly your own biases and baggage here.
For rhythmic traditions in Africa are very much about pure mathematics, rationality, and cold, hard, precision, quite the opposite of the false narrative of "instinctual" or "natural" impulses that you espouse.
Personal anecdote: last time i spoke to Ryuji Ikeda, he told me about being present at a drumming class taught by a master in Gabon (i think it was), and the teacher said exactly: do not play from emotion or feeling. you are not human, you are a machine.
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