Nationalism, immigration and racism in the EU

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sadmanbarty

Well-known member
1) I presume that it's an innate component of human cognition to experience greater empathy for those we consider 'us' or for those whose lives more closely mirror ours.

2) I imagine that most people aren't particularly shocked by a terror attack happening in the middle east, whereas one happening int Europe/ the west, has more of a novelty factor (although that's diminishing).

3) The Paris attacks suggest more about our societies then those in Beirut. Britain isn't part of the Iran/Shia - Saudi/Sunni conflict that has provoked the attacks in Lebanon. It does however have 'conditions' similar to France- former colony Muslim immigrants, similar foreign policy, etc.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
sadmanbarty said:
1) I presume that it's an innate component of human cognition to experience greater empathy for those we consider 'us' or for those whose lives more closely mirror ours.
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I think it's as much about geographical proximity as anything else. I mean, I've been to France, and I've been to Lebanon, but I've spent a hell of a lot more time in France than I have in Lebanon. This is bound to be true for most people in the UK (and in Ireland, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Spain...). I know French people living in the UK and British people living in France, including my parents, so the likelihood of someone I know being directly affected by a momentous event happening there is just that much higher.

Likewise, my brother lives in Sydney about a five minute walk from the café where that guy took those hostages last December. The office where his girlfriend works is even closer and they got evacuated. [edit: OK, so Australia isn't close to the UK geographically but it's close in terms of the degree of population exchange - and yes, culture, language, shared history...] Friends of mine in Holland said thankfully (for them, I mean) no-one they knew was on flight MH17 when I contacted them following that disaster, but one told me "everyone knows someone who's lost someone".

Which is not at all the same thing as finding the murder of any given French, Australian or Dutch person I don't know any more inherently tragic and unjust than the murder of any given Lebanese (or Syrian, Iraqi, Nigerian, Malian...) person I don't know.

sadmanbarty said:
2) I imagine that most people aren't particularly shocked by a terror attack happening in the middle east, whereas one happening int Europe/ the west, has more of a novelty factor (although that's diminishing).

3) The Paris attacks suggest more about our societies then those in Beirut. Britain isn't part of the Iran/Shia - Saudi/Sunni conflict that has provoked the attacks in Lebanon. It does however have 'conditions' similar to France- former colony Muslim immigrants, similar foreign policy, etc.
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Yes, I think those facts are part of it too.
 
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S

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Mr. Tea said:
I think it's as much about geographical proximity as anything else. .
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Lebanon is closer to the UK then America or Australia, but I'd imagine attacks in the latter two would get more coverage.

Just in context of the novelty factor, take mass shootings in the US. I remember Virginia Tech getting loads of press, however as attacks have become more everyday, they have diminished from the news cycle.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
sadmanbarty said:
Lebanon is closer to the UK then America or Australia, but I'd imagine attacks in the latter two would get more coverage.
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I guess you might be right about "people like 'us'" - I suppose that's not totally separable from "countries you're more likely to have a personal connection to". But it's still got more to do with culture than race per se, which is why the kneejerk cry of "racism" is getting a bit tiresome.

sadmanbarty said:
Just in context of the novelty factor, take mass shootings in the US. I remember Virginia Tech getting loads of press, however as attacks have become more everyday, they have diminished from the news cycle.
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Yes, it's horrible when your reaction slides from "God, how to awful" to "Oh for fuck's sake, not again". But there are attacks and there are attacks - I mean, mass shootings are old news in America but Islamist terror is still new enough to have a certain shock value - even while there's a very long-established tradition of far-right terrorism that, as many people have pointed out, tends to get put down to "lone madmen" or "psychopaths" rather than described as terrorism as such.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
sadmanbarty said:
Like a lot of cliche's, 'political correctness gone mad' is trite and furthermore the kind of ill informed reactionary views that accompany it are usually laughable...
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Its been a long time since Ive had to point out to anyone here that I was being sarcastic, but you're relatively new here so Ill give you a pass. ;)
 
S

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
droid said:
Its been a long time since Ive had to point out to anyone here that I was being sarcastic, but you're relatively new here so Ill give you a pass. ;)
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I knew you were being sarcastic. I thought you were mocking Mr. Tea by comparing his opinions to those held by the kind of person who says "political correctness gone mad". I didn't actually think that was your genuine point of view.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
sadmanbarty said:
I knew you were being sarcastic. I thought you were mocking Mr. Tea by comparing his opinions to those held by the kind of person who says "political correctness gone mad". I didn't actually think that was your genuine point of view.
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Ok, good. :D I most certainly was.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Mr. Tea said:
That's not to say there isn't an important conversation to be had about the media filter and how much attention is paid to certain events and why. But in the aftermath of the massacre I saw a number of people who weren't so much interested in having that conversation as they were in trying to make people who were feeling shocked and saddened by the atrocity feel worse by branding them "racist", and then patting themselves on the back for their achievement. And then there was endlessly repeated charge that "the media" (what, all of it?) hadn't reported the Beirut atrocities at all, which was flat-out untrue.
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Interesting piece by the Guardian's social media editor.


Basic thrust is that when people say "Why isn't the media reporting on [latest atrocity in a third-world country]?", very often what they really mean is "I can't be arsed to read about it." In other words, the story is there, but it doesn't get read as much (by white and/or Anglophone people, I mean), so it doesn't get shared as much, so people who get their day's news by glancing at their Facebook/Twitter feed don't find out about it - until they see one of their friends complaining about the "media blackout", when they could have read about it by going to the BBC news homepage, the homepage of any remotely "quality" newspaper or, heaven forfend, buying a print edition.

Also there's the unfortunate but unavoidable fact that there's always much more follow-up coverage of big events that happen nearby as much because it's far easier and cheaper to send journalists from London to Brussels or Paris than to Lahore or Bangkok as for any other reason.
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
People are more interested in being sanctimonious about the lack of coverage of foreign affairs than they are in actually reading it.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
Exactly right Mr. Tea. It drives me nuts, this line of argument. It reached a peak, I think, after Paris, with all these idiots posting "what about Lebanon?" links, and it was often the first time I'd seen them say anything about Lebanon. What about Lebanon? Well, I don't know, do you read all of the reports about Lebanon in the papers? Do you bother with the international pages? They're not that hard to find.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
I mean, it drives me nuts, but I also understand it too. I got a bit bored reading The Times last week, it was like 4 pages on Belgium with no new information to convey; that space could have been better used. And the emotive use of media, rather than reportage or analysis, I object to (I think The Independent started this shit in 2003, with their front page editorials). I also get bored and frustrated by the emphasis on domestic political squabbles. But, that's just because I am more interested in international affairs, fundamentally; it would be unreasonable of me to expect UK media to be putting the internal machinations of Uzbekistan on the front page however important I feel that particular story is. But I can always find the story if I look for it, on the BBC, in the Guardian or the Herald Tribune, or RFE/RL or Eurasianet online. You know, you have to make a bit of effort yourself, rather than just complain that the media is not serving it up to you on a plate.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
I get a bit strict on this. My response is: "fine, you haven't been paying attention, then. Not my fault."
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
Breaking: Thomas Mair guilty of murder of Jo Cox.

Thomas Mair guilty on all four counts: murder, possession of a firearm, GBH, possession of dagger. Unanimous jury

Mair asked via his barrister to address the court before sentencing. Mr Justice Wilkie declined to give him opportunity to make a speech.

Thomas Mair given whole life sentence for murder of Jo Cox MP. Can only be released, if ever, by the Home Secretary.

Judge Wilkie: "There is no doubt that this murder was done to advance the cause of violent white nationalism."
 
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