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Thread: Nationalism, immigration and racism in the EU

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadmanbarty View Post
    Netherlands, Ipsos exit poll:

    VVD-ALDE: 21%
    CDA-EPP 13%
    PVV-ENF 13%
    D66-ALDE 13%
    GL-G/EFA 11%
    SP-LEFT 9%
    PvdA-S&D 6%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/sta...03853873000448
    It's so extremely disappointing again. Sure, the PVV didn't won as much as was expected some weeks ago but where you read VVD you might as well just read PVV-Light, because they have shamelessly taken over a lot of the xenophobe and racist rhetoric of the PVV for the last few months. It will be another four years of conservative right-wing neo-liberal politics. Was really hoping for the left to finally gain some power but they (GL+SP) only got 20% of the votes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    where you read VVD you might as well just read PVV-Light, because they have shamelessly taken over a lot of the xenophobe and racist rhetoric of the PVV for the last few months.
    Something horribly familiar about this.
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  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Something horribly familiar about this.
    It's frustrating to read all the (non-)Dutch media writing about this result as if it is a loss for the PVV, populism and xenophobia, and as a sign of progressiveness, because it's not, it's just populism and xenophobia all over still except scattered over multiple parties. In a sense Geert Wilders even won, because his ideas have been standardized, his hate-speech has been normalized, and can now be found in other parties.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    It's so extremely disappointing again. Sure, the PVV didn't won as much as was expected some weeks ago but where you read VVD you might as well just read PVV-Light, because they have shamelessly taken over a lot of the xenophobe and racist rhetoric of the PVV for the last few months. It will be another four years of conservative right-wing neo-liberal politics. Was really hoping for the left to finally gain some power but they (GL+SP) only got 20% of the votes.
    So if I'm reading the acronyms correctly, the Labour Party vote collapsed from 24% to 6% in the past five years. Presumably they occupy much the same centre-right territory as Labour in the UK and are another victim of Pasokification?

    20% for the Greens and Socialists might be disappointing from a Netherlands viewpoint, but looks at least promising from an outsider's perspective, since it says here that the SP actually opposes privatisation (unlike some alleged socialist parties). Chances of such parties getting 20% in the UK are risibly low, though I suppose the Greens are majorly stymied by the lack of proportional representation and the resulting lack of publicity/sense that they're 'worth' voting for (which on the upside also ensures UKIP have 1 MP, but sadly doesn't stop millions voting for them or deny them publicity).
    Last edited by baboon2004; 15-03-2017 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    So if I'm reading the acronyms correctly, the Labour Party vote collapsed from 24% to 6% in the past five years. Presumably they occupy much the same centre-right territory as Labour in the UK and are another victim of Pasokification?

    20% for the Greens and Socialists might be disappointing from a Netherlands viewpoint, but looks at least promising from an outsider's perspective, since it says here that the SP actually opposes privatisation (unlike some alleged socialist parties). Chances of such parties getting 20% in the UK are risibly low, though I suppose the Greens are majorly stymied by the lack of proportional representation and the resulting lack of publicity/sense that they're 'worth' voting for (which on the upside also ensures UKIP have 1 MP, but sadly doesn't stop millions voting for them or deny them publicity).
    This is true yes.

    I had to look up Pasokification, is this correct: "reducing a country's main social democratic party to the smallest party in parliament as a result of the rise of a more radical left party"?. Because I would say they have not been reduced due to the rise of a more radical left but by a more radical right in fact. A lot of old (Dutch) Labour Party voters have moved to the PVV of Geert Wilders (who, besides being the trademark Muslim/immigrant-basher also has a rather economically socialist program, in fact, it parallels the actual Socialist Party on quite some points). It's especially the Greens (GL) that have won on the left side and this is almost completely due to young voters.

  6. #231
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    Young voters are the future though.

    Positives are the quadrupling of the green vote and wilders dropping to 13% after polls showing 25-40%. Very similar result to Austria actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    This is true yes.
    A lot of old (Dutch) Labour Party voters have moved to the PVV of Geert Wilders (who, besides being the trademark Muslim/immigrant-basher also has a rather economically socialist program, in fact, it parallels the actual Socialist Party on quite some points).
    This figures with stuff I've read elsewhere about how the PVV is mainly 'right-wing' or 'far-right' in its attitude to immigration in general and Muslims in particular, and that it's actually fairly liberal or even leftist in other regards. In fact I believe a main feature of Wilders' spiel is to say that Muslim immigrants with reactionary views are a threat to traditional Dutch tolerance and equality. I recall people talking about this tendency as 'the Left Right' when I lived there a few years ago.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-03-2017 at 09:10 AM.
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  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyaldrin View Post
    I had to look up Pasokification, is this correct: "reducing a country's main social democratic party to the smallest party in parliament as a result of the rise of a more radical left party"?
    Well I guess it depends how you define it, but I understood it as the very rapid (by historical standards) collapse of the vote of the main social democratic party, to the benefit of parties both more left and more right (as Pasok's collapsed vote was by no means all due to Syriza, just as PSOE's -lesser- collapse certainly wasn't solely due to Podemos in Spain). And more widely as an indicator of the general collapse of the centre ground - as you said, the centre right is generally surviving/propspering by encroaching upon the nationalist/racist rhetoric of the far right, whereas the centre left is widely struggling to forge any new identity/convince voters it retains any relevance.Although Macron is an interesting case of course - compared to Blair in the media, but going out of this way to insist that 'left' and 'right' don't relate to his politics at all (but then the media is also hailing him as an outrageous success and model for UK centrists to follow, when his presumed place in the second electoral round depended upon Fillon self-destructing)
    Last edited by baboon2004; 15-03-2017 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    This figures with stuff I've read elsewhere about how the PVV is mainly 'right-wing' or 'far-right' in its attitude to immigration in general and Muslims in particular, and that it's actually fairly liberal or even leftist in other regards. In fact I believe a main feature of Wilders' spiel is to say that Muslim immigrants with reactionary views are a threat to traditional Dutch tolerance and equality. I recall people talking this tendency as 'the Left Right' when I lived there a few years ago.
    that fits neatly with Le Pen's apparent (and potentially v frightening) appeal to old-school socialist voters based on some economic policies that are generally considered left-wing/anti-neoliberal (obvious historical precedents here).

    And I suppose that the shift in racism to largely focus upon invective against Islam (post-2001, or was it occurring before - I find it hard to remember) has often involved a shift in far right tactics to position itself as the defender of tolerance, of women's rights in particular and even of gay rights in some cases (as with Wilders, while Le Pen's attitude, well, it's pretty conflicted...: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/02/14...-sex-marriage/).

    From a UK perspective, things could change a lot if UKIP decided to go down a similar path, taking its lead from the more 'sophisticated' European fascists rather than Trump (appealing disproportionately to voters who will soon be dead, while Le Pen scores highest among both 18-24 year olds and 35-49s). Though I guess that the UK voting public's attachment to neoliberalism would stop some of the same manoeuvres Le Pen is attempting.

    The world is absurdly complicated right now.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 15-03-2017 at 11:22 PM.

  10. #235
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    If anyone is interested in how to interpret the Dutch elections, this is a good place to start in general: https://twitter.com/redlightvoices, and these few tweets sum up my feelings pretty precise: https://twitter.com/saramsalem/statu...07091125686272

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  12. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Young voters are the future though.

    Positives are the quadrupling of the green vote and wilders dropping to 13% after polls showing 25-40%. Very similar result to Austria actually.
    It's of course encouraging - after Brexit and Trump's victory, it looked as if the populists' international was an unstoppable steamroller. As an Austrian I can verify everybody thought Hofer would win the presedential race here - but he didn't and he was actually losing gound. Same with Wilders. And, it's interesting how the polls now seem to exagerate the populists' possible votes, whereas until 2015 the populitsts usually had lower poll expectations than actual voting results.

    At stake now is liberal western democracy, threatened by the populistswho all have authoritarian streaks in common. Sure you can lament liberal western democracy is most and foremost catering to the 5% wealthy (which it is) - still at least regarding personal freedoms and the rule of law this is way better than the "populist democracy" THEY propose.

    The populists now begin to lose and don't match the (somewhat hyperbolic) expectations of themselves, their supporters and some fear-loving media.

  13. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    that fits neatly with Le Pen's apparent (and potentially v frightening) appeal to old-school socialist voters based on some economic policies that are generally considered left-wing/anti-neoliberal (obvious historical precedents here).

    And I suppose that the shift in racism to largely focus upon invective against Islam (post-2001, or was it occurring before - I find it hard to remember) has often involved a shift in far right tactics to position itself as the defender of tolerance, of women's rights in particular and even of gay rights in some cases (as with Wilders, while Le Pen's attitude, well, it's pretty conflicted...: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/02/14...-sex-marriage/).

    From a UK perspective, things could change a lot if UKIP decided to go down a similar path, taking its lead from the more 'sophisticated' European fascists rather than Trump (appealing disproportionately to voters who will soon be dead, while Le Pen scores highest among both 18-24 year olds and 35-49s). Though I guess that the UK voting public's attachment to neoliberalism would stop some of the same manoeuvres Le Pen is attempting.
    It's notable that attitudes towards immigration and Islam/Muslims have become the litmus test for whether politicians in Europe are regarded as 'left-wing' or 'right-wing'. I don't know how serious Wilders really is about feminism, LGBT rights and animal rights, but it certainly puts him at odds with Le Pen and other far-right groups elsewhere in Europe, for whom he's expressed distaste - although he did form a coalition with the FN in the European parliament. But at any rate, it certainly makes him stand out, and it's notable that he's regarded as the successor to Pim Fortuyn, who was big on LGBT and women's rights and openly gay himself, of course. And he's very pro-Jewish, in contrast to most of the alt-right rabble currently taking over the USA.

    The flipside to this is the unfortunate tendency of some on the capital-L Left to make common cause with Islamists whose views on women, gays and Jews would have them labelled far-right - neo-Nazi, even - if they were white.

    Of course, all this is only half the story as it ignores the economic aspect - I don't really know where Wilders stands on this but it sounds like he's anti-austerity, at least, and is presumably keen on protecting 'ordinary Dutch people' (who may be working- or middle-class but are obvious white) from the deleterious effects of neoliberalism, although this is rather at odds with his professed admiration for Margaret Thatcher. I understand Le Pen has some policies that are pretty unarguably left-wing, if not 'socialist' per se. In this country, the fact that UKIP are obviously never going to get anywhere near direct power gives them (like the Greens) the luxury of not having to have anything close to a consistent economic policy*, with palaeosexist lunatic Godfrey Bloom drawing cheers from socialists for his criticism of the banking system while the party's MEPs can't even agree on whether or not the NHS should be privatized. Unlike the Greens, UKIP represents a significant enough vote drain to threaten the Tories and are also benefiting from Labour's implosion in some working-class former Labour strongholds. Indeed UKIP's real triumph is that its manifesto points are starting to become policy without the party occupying a single seat in the Commons.

    *though they're arguably in good company with the present government on that score

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    The world is absurdly complicated right now.
    Christ, you can say that again.
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  14. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    It's notable that attitudes towards immigration and Islam/Muslims have become the litmus test for whether politicians in Europe are regarded as 'left-wing' or 'right-wing'. I don't know how serious Wilders really is about feminism, LGBT rights and animal rights, but it certainly puts him at odds with Le Pen and other far-right groups elsewhere in Europe, for whom he's expressed distaste - although he did form a coalition with the FN in the European parliament. But at any rate, it certainly makes him stand out, and it's notable that he's regarded as the successor to Pim Fortuyn, who was big on LGBT and women's rights and openly gay himself, of course. And he's very pro-Jewish, in contrast to most of the alt-right rabble currently taking over the USA.

    The flipside to this is the unfortunate tendency of some on the capital-L Left to make common cause with Islamists whose views on women, gays and Jews would have them labelled far-right - neo-Nazi, even - if they were white.

    Of course, all this is only half the story as it ignores the economic aspect - I don't really know where Wilders stands on this but it sounds like he's anti-austerity, at least, and is presumably keen on protecting 'ordinary Dutch people' (who may be working- or middle-class but are obvious white) from the deleterious effects of neoliberalism, although this is rather at odds with his professed admiration for Margaret Thatcher. I understand Le Pen has some policies that are pretty unarguably left-wing, if not 'socialist' per se. In this country, the fact that UKIP are obviously never going to get anywhere near direct power gives them (like the Greens) the luxury of not having to have anything close to a consistent economic policy*, with palaeosexist lunatic Godfrey Bloom drawing cheers from socialists for his criticism of the banking system while the party's MEPs can't even agree on whether or not the NHS should be privatized. Unlike the Greens, UKIP represents a significant enough vote drain to threaten the Tories and are also benefiting from Labour's implosion in some working-class former Labour strongholds. Indeed UKIP's real triumph is that its manifesto points are starting to become policy without the party occupying a single seat in the Commons.

    *though they're arguably in good company with the present government on that score



    Christ, you can say that again.
    This is Wilders' program, literally (meaning, it really is 1(!) page long):

    “Enough of the mass immigration, asylum, terror, violence and lack of safety.
    Here is our plan: instead of financing the entire world and the people we do not want here, we give our money back to the common Dutch person.
    This is what the PVV [ed: name of Geert Wilders’ party or “Party for Freedom” in English] will do:
    1) de-islamize the Netherlands
    - Zero asylum seekers and no more immigrants from Muslim countries: we are closing our borders.
    - Withdrawal of all residence permits already granted to asylum seekers; asylum seeker centers closed down.
    - No more Muslim veils in public functions
    - Ban of overall Muslim expressions that are against the public order
    - Preventive incarceration of radical Muslims
    - Criminals with double nationality stripped of their Dutch citizenship and deported
    - Syrian fighters not allowed back in The Netherlands
    - All Mosques and Muslim schools are to be closed and the Koran banned.
    2) The Netherlands will reclaim its independence. Therefore, we leave the EU.
    3) Direct democracy: binding referendums, citizens have the power.
    4) Deductible/excess in healthcare insurance is eliminated
    5) Rents to be lowered
    6) Age of retirement back to 65 years old. Pensions for everyone.
    7) No more money for foreign aid, windmills, art, innovation, public broadcasters, etc.
    8) Past budget cuts involving care will be reversed.
    9) Plenty extra funds for defense and police
    10) Lower income taxes
    11) 50% reduction for vehicle ownership taxes
    Financial benefits per point [ED: the savings for the Dutch State that each of his points will provide]
    1. + 7.2 billion Euro
    2. to be calculated at a later date
    3. to be calculated at a later date
    4. — 3.7 billion Euro
    5. — 1 billion Euro
    6. — 3.5 billion Euro
    7. + 10 billion Euro
    8. — 2 billion Euro
    9. — 2 billion Euro
    10. — 3 billion Euro
    11. — 2 billion Euro
    From: https://medium.com/@flaviadzodan/be-...fff#.sqscgnlm1

  15. #239
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    7) No more money for foreign aid, windmills, art, innovation, public broadcasters, etc.
    Lol, only in the Netherlands.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-03-2017 at 12:26 PM.
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  16. #240
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    Anyone else see this breathtaking piece of hypocrisy in yesterday's Mail?



    YEAH AND I WONDER WHY PEOPLE MIGHT FEEL LIKE THAT ABOUT ASYLUM SEEKERS, PAUL DACRE.
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