Hip-Hop Culture Wars

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
el-p is overrated now, and less interesting than before, but ten years back and in the late 90s, id say he was one of the best producers of anyone. cold vein, fan dam, little johnny from the hospital, funcrusher plus... theres no way you can say that isnt 'valid' somehow just cos it wasnt reaching the same people into dipset or whoever.
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
i like to think that one reason run the jewels are so big is that people like the idea of an underground/'real' hip hop artist (el-p) working with someone from the crass commercial hardcore south (killer mike, though he was always more acceptable to certain rap fans than jeezy or gucci mane), sort of a bridging of both schools, though its prob nothing as idealistic as that, and just that RTJ fans think that is what rap is meant to sound like/talk about, and they are probably quite self congratulatory (seeing as most of their fans are prob more el-p than killer mike fans) about it

this album is 10 times better in any case -

http://www.discogs.com/Bigg-Jus-Machines-That-Make-Civilization-Fun/master/464315

i never totally clicked with that RAP music album either, something about it didnt quite fit into place for me, i think i liked monster, or some of the grind mixtapes better.
 
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luka

Well-known member
Really didn't want to say lol hiphop nerds get over it. I think that's old now. I'm not here to point the finger and laugh
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Luka I'd expect there's something intrinsic to e.g. El-P's music that you don't like for the same reason you don't like Burial/Dubstep/Ed Rush and Optical. Maybe I'm mischaracterising your taste but it seems to me like you don't like stuff that's self-important/self-consciously artsy and anhedonic. Also the general (somewhat proud) amateurishness of that underground stuff. One of my favourite quotes from you is when you described Blawan's ''Bring Me Down'' remix as having shit drums and saying it was the classic indie judo technique of pretending you intended your drums to be sloppy.

I'm actually not opposed to this viewpoint entirely and I do think a lot of fairly sloppy/boring stuff gets a pass in the underground for being 'experimental' or whatever.

Good case in point was an Underachievers mixtape I reviewed once. It was very 90's throwback aesthetic, quite interesting production though but the rapping was pretty banal and frankly they didn't have the breath control to pull off the flows they were attempting. I didn't hate it but I think stuff like that gets over praised.
 

luka

Well-known member
Yeah that's a reasonable characterisation corpsey nothing I want to quibble with
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
I've always thought that Mos Def is a gimmicky, tedious rapper. Same with Common.

But here's a thing, I am at the end of the day a New York Rap Fan, not a commercial underground fan. NY Rap is different, it takes from multiple tiers... The guys on top, the guys who are not on top but aren't considered underground because they talk about weed money guns, etc. The Mos Def's who are considered vastly underrated and yet sold significant amounts of records and were constant critical darlings despite making songs about nothing. Or the Commons who have been terrible at rapping in a technique/rhythm level since 1992, yet still get eternally regarded for... IDK, doing a concept single??? LL Cool J did concept singles back in 1986??? And then of course, the underground underground with the Melineks, Kool Keith's post-Ultramagnetic career, Doom ofc. and even el-P.

Now, back in the day, there was not a severe disparity. Look at the Stretch & Bobbito show. Stretch Armstrong made a point to keep the Black Robs and the Royce da 5'9s next to whatever nerd rap thing Bobbito Garcia brought in, and they made a balance. The world where Children of the Corn and CNN live in harmony with Company Flow. And stuff like that, the constant exposure is what gets you a Cam'ron. Yeah, Stretch & Bobbito loved to play Myka 9, but they also supported Jay-Z's early career, you get what I'm saying?

For WHATEVER REASON, I have always found the most crassly opportunistic sellout middling "let's make music for college kids" underground rap to be the ones with the biggest chips on their shoulder for doing WHAT??? In what world is The Roots, who chased blatant money opening for stuff like Dave Matthews Band, any less cynical and calculated than anything Puffy did? And as terrible at reciting the stuff written for him as Puffy was, he did think immensely about the content he was putting out, whereas a man like Black Thought has been doing the same bullshit post-Kane freestyle since 1992.

The people who perform 'the culture wars', are always usually antagonists in the mid-tiers of 'commercial underground/underground commercial' who feel insecure about how seemingly insignificant their success commercially and artistically. Its why you have Mos Def thirsting after MF Doom so heavily in that video, HE KNOWS how vastly superior a dude who was a 2nd string Native Tongues after-thought (same as him) has become and no matter how many records Black On Both Sides or Blackstar sold, it means nothing in the long run. Doom is an innovator and a true creative, Mos Def is a fucking clown and has always been trash.
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
Interestingly, we're continuing this debate instead of discussing yesterday's cultural war divide with the Drake vs. Meek issue, but anyone else feel free to heat up that thread, 'cause I got iced tea and no classes today, I can go 400 rounds right now.

*Mystikal vox* "BRING EM BY THE ONE, BRING EM BY THE TWOOOOO"
 

luka

Well-known member
He'll (meek) probably apologise for it in an hour or two or make some dubious excuse

I immediately forwarded your post to my mos def worshipping mate and am eagerly awaiting his outrage
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm at a loose end too so I might preempt his response minus the invective just for the sake of having an argument I'm not even invested in
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
He'll (meek) probably apologise for it in an hour or two or make some dubious excuse

I immediately forwarded your post to my mos def worshipping mate and am eagerly awaiting his outrage

I don't think so. Meek's been aggressively adamant about being taken serious as a street artist and a lyricist the past year or so.

There's a lot of talk going around now about conscious/street schisms in the media around rap, a whole lot of "we're not getting enough credit for doing this", and some v. overt schism between say popularity/sales and perception in rap audiences.

As for the Mos Def fan being upset I'm all for that.

You know what is the worst?

Everyone remembers the Mos Def album that came out last, the big comeback with the Madlib beats. Of course you do.

When the song that had the Dilla beat and the Kweli feature came on MTV with me and my father watching, I was like "OK, I know exactly how this is going to go... Mos is going to namedrop an old school rap figure in the first verse, Kweli is going to begin the second verse with a nasal declaration like 'I REMEMBEH WIN A DIDDA TA DIKIDA' in the same flow he's been using since 2002 *father laughs* Wait, wait... And then we close with a Mos Def verse in terrible fake patois."

First verse closes on a forced Just-Ice shout out, my dad groans and rolls his eyes.

Kweli verse, in the Kweli voice "I REMEMBER IN THE DECADE OF DECADENCE" dad groans and laughs, moaning "oh god...."

Transition into third verse!?!?

"AN MI NUH CALL IT A COMEBACK-*incomprehensible noise, John is not Jamaican, Brooklyn rappers are embarassing*" to which my father groans and laughs even louder.

These two clowns can't help it, they're doomed to always be corny.
 

luka

Well-known member
part of what mos def is selling is easy going and knowing corniness so im not sure how fair it is to criticise him for it. alarge part of his success is down to projecting qualities like approachability, cheek, charm, affability etc

neither is it fair to accuse him of doing songs about nothing. he wrote a song about a woman with a fat booty. he wrote a song about the illuminati privatising the world water supply. did lots of other songs i cant remember but are probably about something.
 

luka

Well-known member
i did enjoy that last post enough that its taken away my enthusiasm for mounting even a equivocal defence tho
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
though i saw that chappelle show sketch of him rapping in the car with chappelle and winced at how bad the verses were

but to be fair, theres a lot of rappers with their own personal trademarks

and its too easy to give mos a hard time
 

CrowleyHead

Well-known member
He once did a song that from the title is supposed to be about being a Moor, but has nothing to do with anything.

I should be admitted, I'm v. biased because he didn't show up to his mentor's funeral who's a mentor to my father. He also had a midlife crisis and took up skateboarding. I don't trust people who skateboard in rap, with the exception of Tyler, The Creator. Skateboarders are universally terrible in enjoying rap.
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
He once did a song that from the title is supposed to be about being a Moor, but has nothing to do with anything.

this is prob not incorrect but there are a grillion songs in hip hop about a subject that quickly lose sight of that subject

its not really a genre for people who like lyrics to stay on topic
 

droid

Well-known member
He also had a midlife crisis and took up skateboarding. I don't trust people who skateboard in rap, with the exception of Tyler, The Creator. Skateboarders are universally terrible in enjoying rap.

What the hell are you on about? Skateboarding is one of the 5 elements of hip hop!
 
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