Jeremy Corbyn

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Are you seriously suggesting that a coordinated racist campaign to deport thousands of black British citizens under false pretences should be treated with the same seriousness as an ambiguous one line comment under a facebook post from 6 years ago?

And are you seriously suggesting one comment on Facebook is the extent of the "Labour anti-Semitism thing"? :rolleyes:
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I suspect it will do them more harm because it's simple, straightforward and completely believable in a way that the anti-semitism changes aren't. The Tories have always been fucking racist and everyone knows it. Labour as anti-semitic is a harder sell and I think a subtler process is at work i.e. it's a side-effect of a conspiratorial worldview. I thought this was a good piece on the latter: https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...itism-corbynism-must-change-way-it-sees-world

The roots of such “personalised critiques” of capitalism can be traced back to vulgar understandings of Marx’s so-called “labour theory of value” – understandings which it was Postone’s life’s work to overturn. They do not necessarily have to lead to anti-semitism, but it does not take much for the search for those “rigging the system” to alight on the “rootless ‘cosmopolitan” Jew, forever holding the productive community to ransom though his control of the financial system.


That article mentions Moise Postone's ideas taking hold in the German Left - would love to know what that looks like if anyone knows.

I don't find the "Russian bots for Corbz" that worrying or convincing for a couple of reasons - the first being as Droid says, The Times absolutely has it in for him. Second, Bill Browder said that Putin/Russia has no strategy as such with these, it's just about the spread of chaos. I can imagine that backing any other candidate that'd upset the applecart as well as JC- it's not proof of any kind of Corbynite deep links. "Bots 4 Corbz" is almost to be expected, in this context. The third is because I'm absolutely aware of how personally popular he is, amongst so many people I know, in my age group and younger. We don't need the bots to explain this - and I think to a degree you look silly trying. There are genuine reasons for his popularity (though I do wonder to what degree it'll wane, the more people get to see of him).
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
And are you seriously suggesting one comment on Facebook is the extent of the "Labour anti-Semitism thing"? :rolleyes:

Exceptionally small sample size I admit but it really has not taken long for JC fans I've argued with online to start talking about the Rothchilds or George Soros. Maybe i've been unlucky.

There was a post a week or two ago on the J4PM Facebook group telling people to cut it out with the conspiracy theories and memes - the reaction was interesting to say the least.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Exceptionally small sample size I admit but it really has not taken long for JC fans I've argued with online to start talking about the Rothchilds or George Soros. Maybe i've been unlucky.

There was a post a week or two ago on the J4PM Facebook group telling people to cut it out with the conspiracy theories and memes - the reaction was interesting to say the least.

It's actually unbelievable. The typical response is to claim that it's all just a 'smear' and a 'conspiracy', by - who else? - The Jews, of course! (Although usually couched in terms of "Zionists", "Israel lobby" or what-have-you, of course.)
 

john eden

male pale and stale
The accusations of anti-semitism don't seem to be causing Labour any problems electorally.

They look set to take Barnet off the Tories, for example.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Thanks for that. Those comments on Iraq are an almost exact foreshadowing of the problems with so many Left positions on Syria. Prophetic. Which shows there's something to his analysis:

An imperial power was invading a country controlled by a brutal fascistic dictatorship. The reactions on the part of much of the Left indicated that opposition to the United States is seen as a sufficient criterion for being on the Left. It is as if people have never heard of the era of facist “anti-imperialism” in the 1930s and 1940s... Instead everything was presented in black and white terms, structured by a reified form of anti-Americanism. For me this was an indication of certain bankrupt anti-imperialism.
 

hucks

Your Message Here
Barnet has now gone Tory, defeated Labour councillors saying the party's antisemitism problem cost them.

 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I think the idea that Barnet was gonna go was always a bit fanciful.

In wake of the failures to take target seats, would like to see if Team Corbyn do anything to appeal to centrist voters/people who are Leftish but decided that they hate Corbyn (i.e. me). Paul Mason, was on Twitter last week saying this was something they'd have to factor in - can't see Corbyn having this in him, which I think means we'll be stuck with the current horrible paralysing status quo for the foreseeable.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Here's antiwar superhero Corbyn demanding 'action' after discovering that killing civilians is bad after all:

corbynisrael.jpg

You've got to hand it to him - he knows how to play to his core constituency.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Remarkable isn't it. Magical Grandpa swings into action. Why is this different from Ukraine, Venezuela, Iran, Syria? Where we have to "take it slowly, let's assess the evidence, no rush to judgement" - It's almost as if his political biases determine the causes he supports, regardless of the bodycount. Elected to sainthood on the basis of selective morality.
 
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droid

Well-known member
There are videos from Israeli snipers laughing as they shoot civilians in the back. There is independent & state media on the ground reporting live as events occur. Every moment is being filmed. Israeli politicians declare their plans to shoot to kill in advance and and crucially, most of the Israeli media & political world not only fail to deny whats going on but celebrate the killings. In that sense there is little ambiguity on who is doing the killing, and who is doing the dying (60 dead today including 7 minors), as is evident by the universal condemnation by human rights groups & most sane media.

But please, dont let me stop you exploiting a massacre to use as a weapon against your favourite punching bag.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But please, dont let me stop you exploiting a massacre to use as a weapon against your favourite punching bag.

Assad and friends kill 500,000, displace 12,000,000: "We must seek a diplomatic solution through the UN" (i.e. do nothing)

Israel kills 60: "COMRADES, TO ARMS!!!"

You genuinely don't see an inconsistency here?

Also please fuck off with that patronising "Oh did you know Israel does bad stuff?" bollocks, along with the implication that there is 'ambiguity' about the identity of the forces responsible for well over 90% of the deaths in Syria, which is straight out of the Russia Today playbook.
 
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luka

Well-known member
youve just set yourself up for the kicking of your life there tea.

what amazes me i that it was only a week or two ago that droid showed you how out of your depth you are.
you ran off with your tail between your legs, and now you're back, throwing stones again.... mad
 

luka

Well-known member
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Well Israel is saying Iran shot first: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...heights-israel

At any rates, some missiles from Syria hit Israeli positions in the Golan Heights and Israel thinks they came from Iranian units.

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10-05-2018, 02:52 PM #3
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No, Israel doesn't think they came from Iranian units. Israel knows full well it was the SDF firing on the Golan, which they have done repeatedly through the conflict.

Also, there was the Israeli strike on iranian forces just a few weeks back, the first such attack and a clear escalation.

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10-05-2018, 04:01 PM #4
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Of what possible benefit is it to the SDF to antagonise Israel?

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10-05-2018, 04:26 PM #5
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There's been ongoing conflict between Israel and Syrian forces since the beginning of the war due to Israel's regular incursions and attacks.

There's also the small matter of the Golan heights, a source of strife for decades.

The drumbeat of war – almost exclusively from one side – has been insistent, setting the stage for this week’s escalation.

The reality of this softening up of public opinion with the coincidence of Donald Trump’s decision to pull out of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action to limit Iran’s nuclear ambitions – moves coordinated with Israel – means that analysis of who is to blame for this outbreak of hostilities demands even more than usual scepticism and careful unpackaging.

In terms of who has been responsible for both violence and the escalating sense of crisis, it is important to note that it is Israel for several years that has been conducting air and missile strikes with impunity against targets in Syria, perhaps several hundred in total until an Iranian drone penetrated Israeli airspace earlier this year.

Those attacks, which at first often struck what were described as weapons storage facilities and missiles transfers to Hezbollah, have recently become more pointed and dangerous.

In recent weeks Israel appears to have stepped up a notch in pursuing a deliberate policy of provoking Iran, including by targeting Iranian advisers in Syria leading to reported Iranian fatalities in strikes.

If the context of Israeli military action is not hard to fathom, then neither is the strong sense that its recent actions, informed by that background, have been deliberate.

Israel’s strategy of deterrence on its northern border – including preemption – is based on a policy of preventing a significant threat developing that would allow its enemies to hit Israeli population centres. But equally important is any development that is seen as potentially limiting the Israeli military’s freedom of action.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ns-are-unclear

Given the context & recent events it would take an exceptional level of credulity to ascribe any truth to Israeli claims.

Last edited by droid; 10-05-2018 at 04:43 PM.
 
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