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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn

  1. #1036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I think it's possible to earnestly believe in something and to be cynical at the same time. He has far more in common with Tony Blair than most people realize.
    Except for the fact Corbsy won't win a general election.

  2. #1037
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    I think the main difference between Israel and Syria is that escalating the situation in Syria seems far more likely to trigger world war 3.

    Whereas condemning Israel for shooting Palestinians is regrettably just part of the global background noise.

  3. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Assad and friends kill 500,000, displace 12,000,000: "We must seek a diplomatic solution through the UN" (i.e. do nothing)

    Israel kills 60: "COMRADES, TO ARMS!!!"
    There's much to unpack here, but just to take one example. Estimates vary between about 350,000-498,000 deaths as a result of the war, but regardless, the glib claim that 'Assad and his friends 'killed' them all is indicative of the level of debate here. No matter how you swing it, approximately 1/3 or 120,000 are pro government forces killed by rebels. Of the approx 125,000 anti government forces killed, around 25,000 of them were ISIS fighters.

    It's fair to say that 'Assad & friends' are primarily responsible for the deaths of about 100,000 civilians, and also bears responsibility for flagrant violations of international humanitarian law, breaches of various arms treaties & war crimes, but I guess that level of accuracy doesnt convey the level of spittle spraying indignant rage you were going for.

    Utter nonsense. It was droid who not long ago approvingly posted an article by Robert Fisk - the man being toured around regime-held areas of Syria by regime goons, who then can't find anyone with a bad word to say about the regime, funnily enough - and who then starts spouting off about "sane media". What a shitshow.
    I have asked on numerous occasions in the past that you stop misrepresenting both myself and others, and yet, here we are again. This is what I said about the Fisk article.

    Interesting article from Fisk, who may of course be wrong, but I think has always reported with integrity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8307726.html
    ...

    His cynicism is breathtaking.
    lol

  4. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    I think the main difference between Israel and Syria is that escalating the situation in Syria seems far more likely to trigger world war 3.

    Whereas condemning Israel for shooting Palestinians is regrettably just part of the global background noise.
    That's one but there are other major differences.

    • Israel is an ally of the West and receives major political, military and economic support from Western nations.
    • The situation is Palestine is not a war, its an occupation, and as such there is far more transparency and a surfeit of documentation and evidence regarding events.
    • There has been a solution on the table since 1979, endorsed by the UN and accepted by the PLO, Fatah, (latterly Hamas), Arab nations & about 97% of the world.

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  6. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    From Sam Charles Hamad on Facebook. On excoriating form as usual:
    “The Western Palestine Fetish and Phoney Self-Indulgent Outrage Industry will be mobilising in full swing. No, I'm not making light of those martyred today. I've never had anything but support for the cause of Palestinian self-determination and resistance to Israeli state brutality, but it's not me who has to explain myself.

    It's the likes of Jeremy Corbyn, and he's the perfect figurehead. He's come out and strongly condemned the murder of Palestinians by Israel, while he could not come out and condemn the murder of Syrians by Assad-Iran-Russia after Ghouta, Khan Shaykhun or Douma. Following Douma and Khan Shaykhun, he called for an inquiry to see who *really* did it, while, for the latter, he ignored the huge catalogue of evidence demonstrating it was Assad and posited that it might've been a Syrian rebel group. Where was his statement when the Palestinian refugee area of Yarmouk was starved, bombarded, destroyed and cleansed by Assad, Iran and Russia?
    So, yes, no matter how much this person might be outraged at the slaughter of Palestinians by Israel, it is PHONEY. I'll say it again - the anti-apartheid movement was never opposing apartheid in South Africa while supporting, denying or justifying much worse apartheid elsewhere. So it ought to be met with despise and even ridicule. It ought to be sneered at. And the same goes for all the people you know who are as bad if not worse than apologists for Israel (Israel, in that region, is no supreme evil - not even close) when it comes to apologising for Assad-Iran-Russia's genocide in Syria.
    You'll get all the theatrics - you'll get the marches, the sloganeering, the podiums, the phoney mourning by people who have no organic link to this particular situation. Including governments. Like the Iranian regime has ever done anything of note against the great 'Zionist Entity'. It has expended more resoruces butchering more Arab than Israel could ever hope to in Syria. This is the evil that lies at the heart of the fetish.
    Never confuse victims for those vultures, those ravening wolves who are actually excited every time a Palestinian is killed by Israel, who exploit the victims for their own sordid, self-indulgent ends. They need Israel to kill Palestinians. They want it so very badly. It gives their hollow lives, saturated with privilege, meaning. It gives them opportunities. It makes their dead, soulless form sparkle. This is vicious reality of 'politics'. But they're a huge hindrance to the movement for justice - in a wider and direct sense.
    Every sleazy propagandist for Israel loves the pro-Assad movement and its cross-over with Palestinian solidarity - they think these people have been sent from The Almighty Lord Above.
    Every time Israel murders Palestinians and the inevitable clashes happen within the discourse, they'll be faced with the Corbyns, Blumenthals, Khaleks, Finkelsteins et al, and numerous other ones parasiting in academia and the media (there's thousands of them), and the first thing they'll say is 'it's interesting that you only choose to care about dead Arabs when the Jews are killing them' - guess what, THEY'RE RIGHT. They don't just have a point. They are now, despite their own motivations, 100% correct.”
    Danny, that is a absolutely despicable piece of work. You should be running a mile from this kind of stuff

    To take one example. Norman Finkelstein, both of his parents survivors of concentration camps, endangered his academic career exposing myths and lies about Israel and eventually lost his job because of a campaign by right wing zionists. Extremely critical of Israel with measured, evidence based writing brimming with integrity and is now banned from Israel for his work and regularly receives death threats and accusations of anti-semitism.

    Youre endorsing the idea that this is a fetish for him? That he 'loves it' when Palestinians are killed? That he has 'no organic link' to the situation? That he's a 'media-parasite'?

    You need to take a look at this kind of thinking and where it leads, this can be flipped all kinds of ways.

    What about the obsession with the crimes of official enemies? What's with the Syria-fetish when the situation in Yemen killed 50,000 children last year through starvation and disease and is expected to kill half a million this year? The phoney mourning over Douma but utter silence over the Rohingya genocide...

    ...and I could go on like this, but I wont.

    Because its repulsive.
    Last edited by droid; 15-05-2018 at 08:50 PM.

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  8. #1041
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    Droid, you've posted garbage by Fisk which has no purpose but to obfuscate the truth and distract attention from the paramount culpability of the regime (with the usual 'just asking questions' disclaimer), played the beancounter with kilodeaths regarding a conflict in which one side has *always* been the main aggressor and has the blood of well over 90% of the civilian dead on its hands, and then had the gall to call the piece quoted by Dan 'repulsive' because it calls out the hypocrisy of the Israel-fixation you subscribe to.

    Your high horse in non-existent.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 15-05-2018 at 09:22 PM.
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  9. #1042
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    With all due respect Tea, youve shown yourself time and again to be deeply dishonest, ignorant & nasty in your arguments, consistently misrepresentative, and to be frank, congenitally incapable of understanding nuance, subtlety, or indeed, basic English.

    Back on the ignore list.

  10. #1043
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    Droid: I wouldn't endorse everything Sam says, there - he's very hyperbolic. But it's an interesting take, and one born out of - to me - a very understandable anger. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that everyone involved in advocacy for Palestinians is "phoney" but here is a sense that Syrian deaths don't count for many on the Left and in these circles. The best example I can think of Vanessa Beeley, who has progressed from the Palestinian cause to full time smearer of war zone first responders and no. 1 Assad fan girl (meeting him was "the proudest moment of her life"). See also Max Blumenthal, Rania Khalek and others.

    In the meantime, the state of this: https://www.theredroar.com/2018/05/s...-up-for-assad/

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  12. #1044
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    Blumenthal is relentlessly skeptical of Western narratives, and with good cause. He has also done a lot to expose the outright racism and brutality of Israeli society and suffered for it. Personally I find his perspective on Syria & Russia extremely problematic, but that doesn't necessarily negate the good work he's done in other areas.

    The point Im trying to make is that it is entirely possible to 'expose' the hypocrisy in the position of any activist. There is always a better cause out there. Air pollution kills 9.5 million people a year and climate change is on course to cause humanitarian disasters which will make the Holocaust look like a footnote. Does that make you a hypocrite for focussing on Syria when there are far greater problems in the world?

    It's easy to spin purity tests for activism, but I would suggest that all it really achieves is the alienation of potential supporters.

  13. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I think it's possible to earnestly believe in something and to be cynical at the same time.
    A true believer can't be cynical. The cynical ones are the lapsed believers, though.

  14. #1046
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    I could at least respect his honesty if he said "It's too late, Russia is heavily involved now, we can't risk a direct confrontation which could rapidly escalate, sucks for all the non-combatants caught up in it but there you go". I mean, that would make some sort of sense even if it stopped short of condemning Russia's deliberate targeting of civilians, which he's never going to do in a million years beyond meaningless noises about "violence on all sides".

    But instead he keeps promoting the false idea that a "diplomatic solution" exists, when it very obviously doesn't. Any attempt at a UN resolution would be immediately vetoed by Russia, and even if by some miracle one were to be passed, Assad would obviously ignore it in the absence of any serious military presence to make him comply. That is where the cynicism comes in.

    I still think Corbyn is a true believer in the necessity and justification of Russian power as a counterbalance to American power in the world.
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  15. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I could at least respect his honesty if he said "It's too late, Russia is heavily involved now, we can't risk a direct confrontation which could rapidly escalate, sucks for all the non-combatants caught up in it but there you go". I mean, that would make some sort of sense even if it stopped short of condemning Russia's deliberate targeting of civilians, which he's never going to do in a million years beyond meaningless noises about "violence on all sides".

    But instead he keeps promoting the false idea that a "diplomatic solution" exists, when it very obviously doesn't. Any attempt at a UN resolution would be immediately vetoed by Russia, and even if by some miracle one were to be passed, Assad would obviously ignore it in the absence of any serious military presence to make him comply. That is where the cynicism comes in.

    I still think Corbyn is a true believer in the necessity and justification of Russian power as a counterbalance to American power in the world.
    Yeah, I agree. There's a few people I read who regularly write approvingly about "the emergence of a multi-polar world".

  16. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefinga View Post
    A true believer can't be cynical. The cynical ones are the lapsed believers, though.
    His recent post about Israel is another case in point. I don't doubt that he's genuinely horrified by this latest atrocity - who couldn't be? - but the cynicism is there in the vague call for "action" against Israel. What sort of "action", and by whom, does he have in mind? (I mean, how many UN resolutions has Israel ignored now? 65?) He's not an idiot, he knows full well that meaningful consequences for this sort of thing are impossible while Israel enjoys the unique patronage and favouritism of the USA, just as the Syrian regime is protected by Russia from any substantial punishment by Western militaries.

    But, again, it plays well to the crowd.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-05-2018 at 08:32 AM.
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  17. #1049
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    His stance on Gaza or Israel won't get him majorities anyways. Meaningful domestic politics will, maybe.

  18. #1050
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    @Tea : I think cynicism would be better applied to those who don't call out the terrorism of the Israeli government, no?

    The main problem I have with criticisms of Corbyn is that they lapse into 'let's just criticise everything he does' very quickly. Play the ball, for goodness' sakes.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 16-05-2018 at 08:50 AM.

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