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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn

  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefinga View Post
    His stance on Gaza or Israel won't get him majorities anyways. Meaningful domestic politics will, maybe.
    Well, I'm not sure about that. If it was about actual domestic policy, I think he'd have won a while ago. As long as that policy can be misrepresented (or obfuscated through scandal) by a ruling-class-funded media terrified of any actual reversal of the excesses of corporatism/neoliberalism (or whatever we call the dominant ideology - sure as hell ain't pure capitalism), then it won't matter.

    While I support many of the criticisms of Corbyn over Syria (and his lamentable failure to update his view of foreign policy), it's clear that basic human dignity at home or abroad can never be addressed by any party supporting that dominant ideology.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 16-05-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    @Tea : I think cynicism would be better applied to those who don't call out the terrorism of the Israeli government, no?
    What Israel has done, and has been doing for decades, is brutal and should be condemned - that's not up for question. The problem is the extreme selectivity of many people's outrage. Israel is hardly the only state in the world that routinely brutalizes people, in fact it's by a long way not the most violent and oppressive state in the Middle East or even (since 2011) the biggest killer of Palestinians. But from the way a lot of Western leftists carry on, you'd think Israel was the world's unique acme of evil.

    I have in the past had some sympathy with the point droid made on the last page, namely that Israel is a democracy and an ally of most of the major Western powers, most importantly the USA, so it makes sense to concentrate criticism on Israel rather than on totalitarian states that are for the most part pariahs as far as the West is concerned (e.g. Syria, Iran, Saddam-era Iraq etc.). But I'm not sure this really makes sense. Netanyahu doesn't give any more of a shit about some protesters in London than Assad and Putin do about the Syrian anti-regime activists Dan knows, and neither does Trump. They might be a minor irritation to Theresa May, but they're hardly going to persuade her to break with the USA and enact any kind of serious sanctions on Israel. In fact I see she's gone as far as to call for an "independent inquiry" and asked Israel to "exercise restraint" - which will surely bother the Israeli government about as much as Corbyn's "violence on both sides" warblings bother Assad.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-05-2018 at 11:24 AM.
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  3. #1053
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    What *might* make some difference in Syria would be a serious economic punishment of Russia, which has vast amounts of capital invested in London. But it's inconceivable that the government would do anything that could have such severe consequence for so many wealthy people.
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  4. #1054
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    Quite, but this is another inconceivable policy, by your own admission - so what's the difference? (Same goes for any economic punishment of America as punishment for Trump's lunacy. I'm pretty sure that America has vast amounts of capital invested in the UK too. But inconceivable to do anything with that.)

    Agree very much with the point about selectivity of outrage, and this applies to the vast majority of what has been levelled against Corbyn recently. The most amazing of which were the anti-Semitism allegations - wait a minute, Tories are telling other people what racism is? etc

    Regarding outrage over the democratically-elected Israeli government and its actions - part of it is because it is allowed to transgress and ignore world opinion, in a way that many other governments are not. It's partly a backlash against terribly selective reporting by the mainstream media and terribly selective criticism by the UK government. e.g. 58 Palestinians massacred and Theresa May says it is 'deeply troubling'.

  5. #1055
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    Israel is an integrated part of the world economy. They participate in global trade, receive investment from multinationals, their academics and industry attend conferences & exchange information, they have cultural & political links and global access is vital for their economy, they import and export, their citizens move relatively freely, they sell and buy billions in arms every year. In fact they are extremely dependent on extra-regional trade.

    In that sense there are non-violent actions that would deeply affect Israel. Western sanctions, embargoes, boycotts & divestment have the potential to do serious damage to the Israeli economy without a shot being fired, which is why BDS is a criminal offence in Israel and they have been waging a Hasbara offensive against the movement since it was conceived.

    There are effective actions that could be taken without significant cost, and as its clear that Israel will not change its behaviour and that the US has no interest in changing its behaviour then the onus is on Europe and the rest of the world to take action.

    Israel can win as many wars as they like but they can lose only once, and if they continue to act without restraint then one day there will be serious consequences.

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Agree very much with the point about selectivity of outrage, and this applies to the vast majority of what has been levelled against Corbyn recently. The most amazing of which were the anti-Semitism allegations - wait a minute, Tories are telling other people what racism is? etc
    At the risk of rehashing this again, the fact that the Tories are making political capital out of Labour's anti-Semitism problems obviously doesn't make the problem itself go away (Labour are, after all, giving the Tories a kicking over the Windrush immigrants scandal, as they should be!), and it's the anti-Semitism claims that aren't from Tories - that are in some cases coming from long-established Labour voters and even party members - that we should be listening to.
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  7. #1057
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    The Windrush scandal is to do with racist government policy. Very different.

    Yes, all instances of racism should be investigated. All instances of racism are not investigated. Selective outrage again. It's not about defending Labour or Corbyn, who I don't think have handled the situation well at all; it's about the agenda being totally set by a rabid right-wing media, followed by lots of centrists who want Corbyn gone for reasons entirely unconnected with combating anti-Semitism.

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    The Windrush scandal is to do with racist government policy. Very different.
    Well Labour doesn't have much of an opportunity to be making government policy at the moment, does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Yes, all instances of racism should be investigated. All instances of racism are not investigated. Selective outrage again. It's not about defending Labour or Corbyn, who I don't think have handled the situation well at all; it's about the agenda being totally set by a rabid right-wing media, followed by lots of centrists who want Corbyn gone for reasons entirely unconnected with combating anti-Semitism.
    Well the Tory-leaning nature of most of the UK's national newspapers is unfortunately a fact of life that, for now, we must live with. For all that, a fact doesn't stop being a fact if it's articulated by a Tory MP or printed in the Telegraph, and Labour is never going to fix this problem for as long as the default response from many on the left is a sentence that starts "But the Tories...!" or "But the right-wing media...!". It's also an error to ignore all the words that have been written or spoken about the issue by people with good leftist credentials.

    And I think your line about "lots of centrists who want Corbyn gone for reasons entirely unconnected with combating anti-Semitism" is mistaken, too. Many aspects of what for want of a better word might as well be called 'Corbynism' are absolutely of a piece with anti-Semitism: a general geopolitical isolationism (anti-EU, anti-NATO), a favourable view of Russia, a position of inflexible and absolute moralism regarding Israel/Palestine contrasted to a weirdly woolly relativism vis-a-vis Syria (and an outright pro-Russia stance on Ukraine/Crimea) and an unfortunately very conspiratorial sort of populist anti-capitalism. In a sense he's a victim of his own success because many of these traits are far more strongly displayed by a lot of his supporters than they are even by The Absolute Boy himself.

    I mean, Corbyn has actually recently issued condemnations of anti-Semitism in particular in the party (i.e. not just the same old "all racism is bad" line), and even the Momentum leadership has admitted anti-Semitism is a widespread problem in Labour and that more needs to be done to tackle it. But I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if a lot of his more ardent fans suspect they've been forced to do this because of pressure from, you know, Them.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-05-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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  9. #1059
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    My point: that Labour policy is not anti-Semitic. Conservative policy is racist; it is integral to the party at all levels.

    Second paragraph makes zero sense. You're now saying selective outrage is completely OK as long as it's focused on Corbyn, apparently? This morning you hated selective outrage.

    Third para - have you followed UK politics at all since 2015? I'm blatantly not mistaken. The idea that the whole scandal comes from actual concerns about racism and concerns for the well-being of Jewish people (that mysteriously previously were nowhere to be seen) is beyond laughable. The rest of your paragraph seems to be an unhinged conspiracy theory, and I wish you luck with finishing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Well Labour doesn't have much of an opportunity to be making government policy at the moment, does it?

    Well the Tory-leaning nature of most of the UK's national newspapers is unfortunately a fact of life that, for now, we must live with. For all that, a fact doesn't stop being a fact if it's articulated by a Tory MP or printed in the Telegraph, and Labour is never going to fix this problem for as long as the default response from many on the left is a sentence that starts "But the Tories...!" or "But the right-wing media...!". It's also an error to ignore all the words that have been written or spoken about the issue by people with good leftist credentials.

    And I think your line about "lots of centrists who want Corbyn gone for reasons entirely unconnected with combating anti-Semitism" is mistaken, too. Many aspects of what for want of a better word might as well be called 'Corbynism' are absolutely of a piece with anti-Semitism: a general geopolitical isolationism (anti-EU, anti-NATO), a favourable view of Russia, a position of inflexible and absolute moralism regarding Israel/Palestine contrasted to a weirdly woolly relativism vis-a-vis Syria (and an outright pro-Russia stance on Ukraine/Crimea) and an unfortunately very conspiratorial sort of populist anti-capitalism. In a sense he's a victim of his own success because many of these traits are far more strongly displayed by a lot of his supporters than they are even by The Absolute Boy himself.

    I mean, Corbyn has actually recently issued condemnations of anti-Semitism in particular in the party (i.e. not just the same old "all racism is bad" line), and even the Momentum leadership has admitted anti-Semitism is a widespread problem in Labour and that more needs to be done to tackle it. But I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if a lot of his more ardent fans suspect they've been forced to do this because of pressure from, you know, Them.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 16-05-2018 at 06:22 PM.

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  11. #1060
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    I think some Jewish people are concerned about the wellbeing of Jewish people. Maybe some of them might be worth listening to about anti-Semitism. I dunno, just a thought.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 16-05-2018 at 09:04 PM.
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  12. #1061
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    Seriously though, you think my pointing out that some of Corbyn's more ardent fans are prone to conspiracy theories *is itself a conspiracy theory*? Really?

    "I think you're projecting."
    "Oh yeah? Well maybe YOU'RE the one who's projecting, ever think about that?"
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  13. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    I think some Jewish people are concerned about the wellbeing of Jewish people. Maybe some of them might be worth listening to about anti-Semitism. I dunno, just a thought.
    Good idea:

    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...032896?lang=en

    or in more words:

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns...ader-555916863

    What was your point again, I've forgotten?
    Last edited by baboon2004; 16-05-2018 at 10:20 PM.

  14. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Seriously though, you think my pointing out that some of Corbyn's more ardent fans are prone to conspiracy theories *is itself a conspiracy theory*? Really?

    "I think you're projecting."
    "Oh yeah? Well maybe YOU'RE the one who's projecting, ever think about that?"
    Think of it rather like this:
    "Lots of Corbyn supporters believe in bizarre bullshit that I'm now going to explain in the following ridiculously over-generalising paragraph."
    "Hm, funny you should mention the words 'bizarre bullshit'."

    (And incidentally, countertransference is very much a thing!)
    Last edited by baboon2004; 16-05-2018 at 10:31 PM.

  15. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Think of it rather like this:
    "Lots of Corbyn supporters believe in bizarre bullshit that I'm now going to explain in the following ridiculously over-generalising paragraph."
    "Hm, funny you should mention the words 'bizarre bullshit'."

    (And incidentally, countertransference is very much a thing!)
    Well here are some (actually 2,000) Corbyn supporters dismissing a Jewish-led protest against anti-Semitism as being organised by a shadowy conspiracy of, er, Very Powerful People:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8278761.html
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  16. #1065
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    give it up tea! youve had enough punishment.

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