Page 72 of 73 FirstFirst ... 226270717273 LastLast
Results 1,066 to 1,080 of 1089

Thread: Jeremy Corbyn

  1. #1066
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Loondon
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    The Moshe Postone interview and New Statesman article me and Jon posted a few pages back are interesting reading on Labour and anti-semitism (in this thread I think), if anyone wants any theoretical background reading.

  2. #1067
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,728

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    I can't tell whether you're being ignorant here or wilfully dishonest by posting this single David Schneider tweet. I follow him on Twitter and he's consistently been the most sober, balanced and engaging public voice I've encountered on the whole issue. If you think he's taking a position close to yours - that the scandal has been cooked up out of nothing, or nearly nothing, by the Tories (or, worse still, those nefarious 'Blairites' and 'Centrists'!) for the purpose of unseating Corbyn - then you are severely mistaken:

    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...89312602525697
    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...87655835602944
    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...86641162194945
    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/s...86012368949248

    and

    schneider.JPG

    Why is this so hard for you to take seriously? We're talking about multiple cases of Holocaust denial here, amongst many other things, and the response from the We Support Jeremy Corbyn group blaming all the backlash against it literally on a Jewish conspiracy!

    If you refuse to see what's going on here then I can't really help you.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 17-05-2018 at 09:16 AM.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  3. #1068
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Loondon
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    In other news, the Shadow Foreign Secretary: “There is an argument that if [Assad] had been as overwhelmingly unpopular as the rebels told the west at the outset, then he wouldn’t be there. I think there has been a depth and a breadth of support for Assad that has been underestimated.”

    There was a revolution involving millions, followed by 7 years of war, and he's only holding onto the country via Iranian militias and Russian airpower. Fucking unbelievable.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DannyL For This Useful Post:


  5. #1069
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Loondon
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    Everyone seemed to miss this when I posted it a few pages ago so here's the text:

    Labour Party members in Stroud Green last week debated a motion on Syria during which it was asserted: “There is evidence that the Assad regime is preferred by Syrian people.”

    The controversial motion prompted a lively discussion, which included comments from the floor claiming that; “There is no evidence of popular protest or dissent agaisnt the Syrian government”; referred to “The purported chemical weapons attack…” and a statement that “The Russians were invited in by the legitimate Syrian government.”


    https://www.theredroar.com/2018/05/s...-up-for-assad/

    The Labour Party in 2018 - objectively pro-facist.

  6. #1070
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Loondon
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    From a friend on Facebook - in response to the Thornberry quote above.

    1. As Kasparov has pointed out: how do you measure the actual popularity of a dictator in a state run on terror for 48 years?

    The metaphor he uses is how can we know how popular the *only* restaurant in a town really is, especially when it is run by the local mafia and all aternatives are systematically torched.

    .................................................. ...........

    2. Even criticising Assad in print or aloud lands you in detention, almost definitely tortured, possibly killed. Never mind actually organising a protest or genuine political opposition.

    The 15 branches of Syria's intelligence apparatus, the mukhabarat, count some 50,000 to 70,000 full-time officers, along with hundreds of thousands of part-time personnel and informers. By 2011 it was estimated there was one intelligence officer for every 240 or so Syrians.

    “The garbage collectors are intelligence agents,” a protester told the Associated Press after 120 people were killed in two days of protests in April 2011. “Sometimes we think even our wives are working with the intelligence. All the phones are monitored. We live in hell.”

    .................................................. ..........

    3. From the very beginning Assad adopted a sorched earth policy. Those who attended protests were rounded up, even doctors who treated wounded protestors were charged with 'abetting terrorism' and arrested. The message was very clear: you show allegiance to the regime or you risk rape, detention, torture, murder, PTSD, exile and your home and community relentlessly shelled and bombed.

    Here is testimony from Marie Colvin from Homs in 2012:

    ‘Every civilian house on this street has been hit. We're talking about a very poor popular neighborhood. The top floor of the building I'm in has been hit, in fact, totally destroyed. There are no military targets here. There is the Free Syrian Army: Heavily outnumbered and out-gunned - they have only Kalashnikovs and rocket-propelled grenades. But they don't have a base. There are more young men being killed, we see a lot of teen-aged young men, but they are going out to just try to get the wounded to some kind of medical treatment. So it's a complete and utter lie that they're only going after terrorists. There are rockets, shells, tank shells, anti-aircraft being fired in parallel lines into the city. The Syrian Army is simply shelling a city of cold, starving civilians.'

    To talk about 'underestimating Assad's popularity' in such conditions is grotesque and willfully ignorant.

    .................................................. ................................

    4. Assad has had a huge military advantage over the rebels. The full power of a state military, including an airforce, helicopters, heavy artillery and scud missiles. It has also been backed by the world's 3rd most powerful army (Russia) who brought cruise missiles, advanced fighter bombers, helicopter gunships, cluster, bunker busting and thermite bombs and a UNSC veto to the table. On top of this it had Iran, and Gen. Solemani, regarded as the ME's most experienced and feared operative. He organised Shia militias battle-hardened in Iraq and Hezbollah to join the fight.

    The rebels meanwhile were armed with what they could capture off Assad plus relatively unsophisticated and minor arms from their backers such as KSA. No airforce, no surface to air or ballistic missiles, very little heavy artillery and few tanks.

    The only reason they have survived for 7 years against overwhelming military odds is the thing they did have: support of the population, sometimes only as the lesser evil.

    .................................................. ...........................

    5. Despite these power differentials, Iranian representatives and Assad had to travel to Moscow in 2015 and beg Putin to intervene.

    The reason: the Assad regime was on the edge of collapse and defeat after 4 years of fighting a poorly armed insurgency.

    How does Emily explain that? is she just unaware of it or has she chosen to ignore it?

    One of the main reasons that Assad had to beg Putin for help was because of mass desertions from his army. No one except regime loyalists wants to fight for him, because they know what it means: killing their own community members, taking orders from Iranian and Russian commanders who despise them and taking part in sickening war crimes and collective punishments.

    .................................................. ..................

    What we have here is the Shadow Foreign Secretary ventriloquizing Assad himself. It is an extraordinary betrayal of a revolution. Note how she is implying both that the rebels have tried to mislead The West, and that Assad might have some legitimacy. This is laying the ground for the restoration of diplomatic relations. Labour are now, when it comes to Foreign Policy, the party of fascist apologism.

  7. #1071
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,361

    Default

    Re David Schneider - sure, he may have a different view in general from me, but the relevance of the quote still stands. Which is, that the mainstream media has zero interest in listening to Jewish people who don't reflect its narrative. It wants Corbyn's head, as has been true since 2015 (again, you have followed all this, right?)

    If you're going to misrepresent my argument woefully ("Why is this is so hard for you to take seriously?" I do take it seriously. I think maybe read my previous posts again, for you have continued to misunderstand my basic point?), then well, you're going to continue to misrepresent my argument woefully.

    I can see what's going on, as it's bloody obvious. I'm trying to help you to see it. Two things can be true simultaneously- anti-Semitism exists in our society, and some of those culpable belong to the Labour Party (and should be dealt with appropriately. and the LP has not been good at doing this), and that this scandal has not been primarily motivated by genuine concerns about racism, but a witch-hunt in which the validity of the allegations has varied hugely. Throw a load of shit, and some of it will stick (though not necessarily the stuff that has the most moral validity, obviously).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Why is this so hard for you to take seriously? We're talking about multiple cases of Holocaust denial here, amongst many other things, and the response from the We Support Jeremy Corbyn group blaming all the backlash against it literally on a Jewish conspiracy!

    If you refuse to see what's going on here then I can't really help you.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 17-05-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  8. #1072
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,361

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Well here are some (actually 2,000) Corbyn supporters dismissing a Jewish-led protest against anti-Semitism as being organised by a shadowy conspiracy of, er, Very Powerful People:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8278761.html
    Again, two things can be true. I very much don't agree with dismissing the protest in this unhelpfully vague manner (but I think there are more than 2,000 people voted for Corbyn, and therefore a plurality of opinion on this matter, as I recall, anyways...), but it remains a fact as far as I've read that the event was organised by the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council, the leadership of both of which have clear links to the Tory Party. It's not a shadowy conspiracy, it's a broad daylight political manoeuvre. Leader of the Board of Deputies is a public supporter of Trump, so obvs doesn't give that much of a shit about racism and fascism.
    Last edited by baboon2004; 17-05-2018 at 12:59 PM.

  9. #1073
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    North East London
    Posts
    5,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    Everyone seemed to miss this when I posted it a few pages ago so here's the text:

    Labour Party members in Stroud Green last week debated a motion on Syria during which it was asserted: “There is evidence that the Assad regime is preferred by Syrian people.”

    The controversial motion prompted a lively discussion, which included comments from the floor claiming that; “There is no evidence of popular protest or dissent agaisnt the Syrian government”; referred to “The purported chemical weapons attack…” and a statement that “The Russians were invited in by the legitimate Syrian government.”


    https://www.theredroar.com/2018/05/s...-up-for-assad/

    The Labour Party in 2018 - objectively pro-facist.
    Clearly that's nuts and shouldn't be on the table for discussion. The article doesn't say who put the motion forward though or what the result was.

    I would speculate that some loon put it forward and it had to be debated for procedural reasons and the outcome was that the motion didn't pass.

  10. #1074
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,728

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    but it remains a fact as far as I've read that the event was organised by the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council, the leadership of both of which have clear links to the Tory Party.
    Then it might have been more useful for WSJC to actually say that, rather than hinting darkly at the Elders of Zion.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 21-05-2018 at 09:26 AM.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  11. #1075
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    East Loondon
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    Clearly that's nuts and shouldn't be on the table for discussion. The article doesn't say who put the motion forward though or what the result was.

    I would speculate that some loon put it forward and it had to be debated for procedural reasons and the outcome was that the motion didn't pass.
    I hope you're right. I do wonder if being pro-Assad is a minority position in the Labour Party anymore, given the leanings of Thornberry et al.

  12. #1076
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
    I hope you're right. I do wonder if being pro-Assad is a minority position in the Labour Party anymore, given the leanings of Thornberry et al.
    Being pro Assad has got a lot to do with being pro Putin which has got a lot to do with being against the USA/NATO which is where a lot of people of the political left and right converge. At least thats the case in Germany where right wing AfD and the left-from-the social democrats "Die Linke" pretty much display the same support for Putin.

  13. #1077
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,361

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Then it might have been more useful for WSJC to say actually that, rather than hinting darkly at the Elders of Zion.
    Can't deny that, but maybe it would also have been useful for the Independent to do actual journalism rather than basing an article upon Facebook likes and selective outrage, again.

    Main point anyways is that that protest seems not to have been a spontaneous eruption of anger from Jewish people (which is not to deny that many Jewish people were and continue to be angry at the Labour Party), but a managed political act by enemies of Corbyn.

  14. #1078
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    8,361

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefinga View Post
    Being pro Assad has got a lot to do with being pro Putin which has got a lot to do with being against the USA/NATO which is where a lot of people of the political left and right converge. At least thats the case in Germany where right wing AfD and the left-from-the social democrats "Die Linke" pretty much display the same support for Putin.
    This is definitely a 'thing' in the UK, and I'm regularly disappointed by people who seem to have to 'take sides' between the two superpowers (hey, where's China?) and end up supporting abhorrent positions (i.e. not condemning a mass murderer like Assad). From a cod-psychoanalytic point of view, it smacks of the sick impulse to deify one parent and condemn the other, rather than coming to a synthesis. Daddy's a monster, but Mummy's just wonderful!
    Last edited by baboon2004; 17-05-2018 at 04:50 PM.

  15. #1079
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,728

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baboon2004 View Post
    Main point anyways is that that protest seems not to have been a spontaneous eruption of anger from Jewish people (which is not to deny that many Jewish people were and continue to be angry at the Labour Party), but a managed political act by enemies of Corbyn.
    At the risk of pointing out the obvious, it's possible for a political principle - such as "Labour needs to get its act together regarding anti-Semitism" - to be both popular among people who don't like Jeremy Corbyn and valid in itself*. There's also the danger of putting the cart before the horse, here: rather than thinking "Anti-Corbyn protests have been organised using anti-Semitism as a justification by people who for some reason just don't like Jeremy Corbyn", maybe "A lot of Jewish people dislike Corbyn because, at the very least, they think his response to anti-Semitism in Labour has been inadequate" might be more illuminating.

    [*A side note, but not irrelevant given the subject of Western leftist attitudes to world politics: it's a very common fallacy for people to assume that a cause has no legitimacy if it, perhaps entirely coincidentally, aligns to any extent with the interests of some group they oppose. You hear this all the time in anti-imperialist circles, about how this or that resistance or protest movement in whatever country (Iran, let's say) must be 'sponsored by the CIA', just because it's in opposition to a government that's unfriendly to the USA. Which is pretty racist in its own way, of course. I guess it's an extension of the my-enemy's-enemy fallacy to the principle of 'my enemy's enemy's enemy must also be my enemy'.]
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  16. #1080
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    15,728

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefinga View Post
    Being pro Assad has got a lot to do with being pro Putin which has got a lot to do with being against the USA/NATO which is where a lot of people of the political left and right converge. At least thats the case in Germany where right wing AfD and the left-from-the social democrats "Die Linke" pretty much display the same support for Putin.
    I don't know about in Europe (though I suspect it's a similar story) but the American far right virtually hero-worships Assad, because as a secular tyrant they see him as a bulwark against both Zionism and Islamism. And while anti-Zionism, with its notoriously porous boundary with anti-Semitism, is a clear point of hard-left/hard-right convergence, the Western left's attitude to Islamism is much more ambiguous. Since 9/11 it's become routine for people to blame imperialism for any and all Islamist terror attacks in Western countries, even when this didn't make even the flimsiest bit of sense - I saw people wheeling it out after the Brussels Airport bombing two years ago, despite the fact that Belgium played no part at all in the invasions of Afghanistan or Iraq and contributed only a handful of air raids on military targets in Libya in 2011. The same logic apparently applied in the Middle East too, when STWC supported the Iraqi insurgents even as they killed other Iraqis at a far greater rate than they did coalition troops (never mind the fact that many of the insurgents weren't even Iraqi themselves). This seems to have changed a bit since the outbreak of the civil war in Syria, because now Assad, with Iran and Russia at his back, has stepped up as the region's leading "anti-imperialist". (Not that Iran and the Shi'a militias it supports aren't Islamist, of course, but they're the other kind of Islamists, the ones that aren't financially backed or spiritually inspired by Saudi Arabia - which some people in the West are very vocally opposed to, not so much because it's an ultra-reactionary authoritarian hellhole as because it's an ally of the USA.) And as a result you have Westerners at both ends of the political spectrum repeating the Assad/Putin line that "there are no moderate rebels" and "everyone fighting Assad is ISIS/Assad is only fighting ISIS", in other words conveniently collapsing the entire multifaceted Syrian war to The Government versus The Terrorists.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •