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Thread: Trump

  1. #1591
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    leaving aside this particular argument in which tea is operating, consciously or otherwise, as an agent of capital and death, the reason vegetarianism and veganism in particular are progressive is not because of pragmatic decisions concerning resources. as important as those are they don't determine whether or not an idea or practice is progressive. it is about expanding the circle of concern and ethical engagement. it is about the deliberate decision to step out of a simple power relationship, an up-down, domination and submission relationship. this is basic stuff. everything tea says should be automatically discounted, always, in every situation.

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  3. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by sufi View Post
    erm who funded that research?
    I dunno. But if you're implying that Big Meat must be behind it, bear in mind that it unequivocally shows that a high-meat diet like that of most Americans is not the most sustainable or land efficient. It finds that a vegan diet is more land efficient than a high meat diet, but that the best efficiency comes from either vegetarian but non-vegan diets or from omni diets with some meat (less than most American people currently eat).

    That's all based on land use rather than GHG emissions, but anti-meat arguments usually revolve around excoriating the beef industry, which accounts for the vast majority of livestock emissions. But there is meat other beef. The climatic impact of poultry farming is negligible. (Never mind fish and seafood.)
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  4. #1593
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  5. #1594
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    leaving aside this particular argument in which tea is operating, consciously or otherwise, as an agent of capital and death, the reason vegetarianism and veganism in particular are progressive is not because of pragmatic decisions concerning resources. as important as those are they don't determine whether or not an idea or practice is progressive. it is about expanding the circle of concern and ethical engagement. it is about the deliberate decision to step out of a simple power relationship, an up-down, domination and submission relationship. this is basic stuff. everything tea says should be automatically discounted, always, in every situation.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  6. #1595
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    you always post that. zizek is a twat.

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  8. #1596
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    I know. It's still funny though.
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  9. #1597
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    hes a good comic character i cant deny it

  10. #1598
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    leaving aside this particular argument in which tea is operating, consciously or otherwise, as an agent of capital and death, the reason vegetarianism and veganism in particular are progressive is not because of pragmatic decisions concerning resources. as important as those are they don't determine whether or not an idea or practice is progressive. it is about expanding the circle of concern and ethical engagement. it is about the deliberate decision to step out of a simple power relationship, an up-down, domination and submission relationship. this is basic stuff. everything tea says should be automatically discounted, always, in every situation.
    Are you vegetarian or vegan? Because there is still a relationship of dominance and submission if you use any animal products, not just meat per se.

    But moreover I don't really see a problem here, because I don't feel the need to consider a chicken as an equal. No other creature voluntarily 'steps outside the power relations' established by evolutionary necessity. Obviously modern factory farming is a far cry from hunter-gatherer subsistence but our instincts haven't changed in the last 100,000 years. I posted that Zizek clip in jest but do I think there is something a little perverse in saying "No, our instincts are wrong, they've always been wrong, we should suppress them and do this instead".
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  11. #1599
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    I think there is something a little perverse in saying "No, our instincts are wrong, they've always been wrong, we should suppress them and do this instead".
    this is the reactionary position. it's not very sophisticated and it unravels as soon as you pull a single thread but you've stated it succinctly.

  12. #1600
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    I agree, we should all be staving in the heads of our rivals in order to achieve dominance and present ourselves as the most attractive prospect for mating.

  13. #1601
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    I agree, we should all be staving in the heads of our rivals in order to achieve dominance and present ourselves as the most attractive prospect for mating.
    as i say it's not very sophisticated but then with tea nothing is put forward as a serious intervention it's all diversionary. he's not really that stupid he's just dedicated to gumming up the gears.

  14. #1602
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    The fact is that our diet is unsustainable in terms of efficient land use, water use, feed for livestock, deforestation (which alone contributes about 20% of emissions), leading to desertification and loss of biodiversity. Phosphorous and nitrogen use for feed erodes soil sustainability (despite the supposed benefits of grazing) and pollutes waterways and oceans. On top of that excessive antibiotic use in agriculture creates superbugs and pathogens spread from wild animals through livestock and then to humans, and will probably be the source of the next major pandemic.

    There are problems with alternatives as well, but industrial meat production is an unmitigated disaster. Even if we dont sharply reduce our production and intake, we will soon be forced to do so.
    OK, well that makes a bit more sense than your cryptic "meat is killing the soil". I agree that factory farming is pretty environmentally bad, I mean that's just obvious, but you can buy meat that isn't factory farmed (and costs correspondingly more). But to go from that to advocating veganism is like saying "Drinking a bottle of vodka a day is very bad for you, so you should be teetotal".

    And your numbers still sound pretty crazy. All the sources I've seen say livestock contribute to somewhere between 10 and 20% of global GHG emissions (estimates of 14-18% here). And the vast majority of that comes from cows, so it's a beef/dairy issue, not really a meat issue.

    Plus, as I've said, soy is an environmental disaster because it's mostly grown in South America, often on previously forested land cleared for agriculture, and the popularity of vegetarianism/veganism is leading to an explosion in demand even while meat consumption is falling in many parts of the developed world.
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  15. #1603
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    I agree, we should all be staving in the heads of our rivals in order to achieve dominance and present ourselves as the most attractive prospect for mating.
    You say that like it doesn't happen all the time. It's just done at the level of the nation-state rather than the tribe or individual.
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  16. #1604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    You say that like it doesn't happen all the time. It's just done at the level of the nation-state rather than the tribe or individual.
    and youre saying it's perverse to try to swim against that current. those are the positions. and that's why youre not on the team.

  17. #1605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Are you vegetarian or vegan? Because there is still a relationship of dominance and submission if you use any animal products, not just meat per se.
    @Tea. actually this is very interesting. i wonder, in some respects if it is more ethical to kill and eat meat than keep livestock in permanent captivity to produce dairy and eggs. more and more that's the opinion i'm coming round to. if not just because dairy and eggs make me sick (a transference of their negative energy possibly ) while meat, in modest amounts, doesn't.

    after all... at the end of the day... we're all worm food.

    i have some sympathy for the pro meat arguments. there was that sustainability case-study with the guy who reared goats for milking them (man was a vegetarian) - and he found, after much hand-wringing, the only way to proceed was to kill the baby male goats (kids?)

    society definitely should eat less meat though innit. or as now the reviled lsd-maniac michael pollan said "eat food, not so much, mainly plants"

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