Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm not a feminist

And are you aware your #notallmen-isms are making you sound like an MRA...again.

I honestly don't know what to say to that. You make these great, sweeping generalizations that are obviously untrue, and then anyone who quibbles is an "MRA"? Because to except even yourself from your own generalizations would be "not-all-men"-ism?
 

Leo

Well-known member
actually, vim, i think i may have misunderstood your comment...if you are referring to this election specifically as opposed to historical attacks on the clintons, then yes you're correct, his hardcore base is often depicted as the uneducated knuckleheads. at the same time, the reality is there are plenty of establishment republicans who also back him.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
But does Benny B, personally, just let it slide? Is he as guilty as the rest of us? I don't understand the psychology of the extreme white-knight type of male feminist who constantly bangs on about how terrible men are. Do they include themselves in the great suppurating morass of Bad Men? Because it has very weird implications either way.

Or is it like, I'm bad too, but I at least know I'm bad, which makes me less bad than the rest?

I don't think men are terrible by nature or anything, but like baboon was saying, we are all 'guilty' of enjoying male privilege and that goes hand in hand with the deeply embedded sexism in masculine culture - its delusional for anyone to think they are somehow outside of this socialisation.

When you say 'speak for yourself mate' - can you honestly say you have never in your life done or said anything sexist, or ignored a mate's sexist comments, gone along with or joined in 'harmless' sexist bantz just because its easier than challenging it? Or watched any porn where degrading language is used towards women. Ever?

I admit to having done all of these things in the past. The best I can say is that nowadays I'm much more aware of these things than before and make as much effort as possible to never do them again (though I admit still ignore it when friends/workmates occasionally make sexist comments), and fully deserve to get pulled up on them if and when I do.

Feminism will always be (or should always be) uncomfortable for all men, allies or not, because it requires implicating ourselves and giving up our privileges. I think that should be the first thing to realise and accept if you want to be any kind of feminist ally. Liberal men who claim to be feminist allies (or even outright feminists!) and make noises about how shocking and terrible trumps comments are, and how misogynistic the alt-right is, then go defend degrading porn because of 'free choice' and (and often watch it themselves) are not being feminist allies, they're part of the problem. And it's there in both the left and the right.
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I honestly don't know what to say to that. You make these great, sweeping generalizations that are obviously untrue, and then anyone who quibbles is an "MRA"? Because to except even yourself from your own generalizations would be "not-all-men"-ism?

Sure, we're all talking in generalisations to some extent by necessity. And there is obviously a huge scale of sexism ranging from unconscious assumptions, casual jokes up to outright violent misogyny - but then again I don't think trump's comments were all that far from the norm in masculine culture - and none of it can be said to be acceptable or beyond criticism. I don't think anyone who quibbles with this *is* an MRA, but a fair few of your comments are reminiscent of the type of reactionary arguments they make. It only ever serves to divert attention away from the depth and scale of the major problem.

I don't think it's cynical of me to be suspicious of this impulse to always jump to defend men whenever someone criticises masculinity and male entitlement, or talks about it in a generally negative way. Sure, #notallmen are like donald trump, but all men have some part to play in the problem, and liberal guys clamouring to declare "I'm not like that!" aren't helping one bit. Sorry, but I think even just shutting the fuck up and saying nothing is probably more helpful than that.
 

luka

Well-known member
You and Michael Moore. But yeah, there's only two competitors so why not. It looks highly unlikely at this stage and we're guaranteed more 'revelations' along the way but who knows
 

vimothy

yurp
It's not that I think it's particularly likely - I honestly have no idea. My heuristic is like this: inside the giant media bubble, this outcome is impossible. But the media bubble has been calling the collapse of his campaign since it started, and it's got it completely wrong so far.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Rust belt blocs highly motivated to vote for him who don'te give a shit about "revelations", relish his style and as there are a lot of ex-Democrats in that demographic will be happy with mainstream GOP defections or abstentions; minority blocs too disaffected to get out for Clinton. Silent, "shy" Trump voters; a large group of Democrats who loathe the Clintons.

It's too close not to add all these things up, and I'm not just calculating on the UK 2015 election, Corbyn or Brexit examples, which are sort of relevant buto not really here.

I might put a bet on it this time.
 

luka

Well-known member
Perfectly reasonable. It's how I often predict the outcome of boxing matches. If everyone says one boxer has no chance I often assume he'll win.
 

luka

Well-known member
If I had to make a prediction it would be that he'll lose fairly heavily but who knows.
 

vimothy

yurp
It's interesting how the process appears to move forward without memory. Every couple of weeks we learn a new revelation that will definitely destroy his candidacy, followed by a great deal of triumphalism in the media. It doesn't stick and we go on to the next controversy for another iteration.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Sure, we're all talking in generalisations to some extent by necessity. And there is obviously a huge scale of sexism ranging from unconscious assumptions, casual jokes up to outright violent misogyny - but then again I don't think trump's comments were all that far from the norm in masculine culture - and none of it can be said to be acceptable or beyond criticism. I don't think anyone who quibbles with this *is* an MRA, but a fair few of your comments are reminiscent of the type of reactionary arguments they make. It only ever serves to divert attention away from the depth and scale of the major problem.

I don't think it's cynical of me to be suspicious of this impulse to always jump to defend men whenever someone criticises masculinity and male entitlement, or talks about it in a generally negative way. Sure, #notallmen are like donald trump, but all men have some part to play in the problem, and liberal guys clamouring to declare "I'm not like that!" aren't helping one bit. Sorry, but I think even just shutting the fuck up and saying nothing is probably more helpful than that.

What annoyed me was your "we do this..." and "we do that..." line. I'm like, you've never met me, I've never met you, all you know about me is what I type into a browser window. So I don't really like being told what I do and don't do. If you have to work through your own issues by implicating yourself in this great cesspit of generalized male depravity, then fine, but leave me out of it.

And come on, as comebacks go, "#notallmen" is tired as all hell and has long ago been beaten into meaninglessness.
 
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luka

Well-known member
I didn't say he was infallible but he's a probably got a better record than you when it comes to US politics
 
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