IdleRich

IdleRich
But this is the (one of the many) big problem with US politics isn't it? There is no way to stand if you're not part of those two parties... that can't be right. I mean are we happy for only Rs and Ds to stand forever? I hope something breaks that status quo (I mean, it's not so urgent as a million other things such as climate change) and if it takes this kind of entryism to do it then I'm all in favour.
 

Leo

Well-known member
in an ideal world, the biggest driver of a third-party would be disgruntled republicans who maintain traditional conservative republican values and have been rejected by the current GOP, aka the party of trump.

also, I should mention that if the democratic primary were held today, I honestly have no idea who I would vote for. it's foolish to hold out for the perfect candidate to come along, they all have flaws and positions I don't share, but goddamn I'm not excited about any of the choices. it's a real problem.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
in an ideal world, the biggest driver of a third-party would be disgruntled republicans who maintain traditional conservative republican values and have been rejected by the current GOP, aka the party of trump.
I hear that... but in an even idealer ideal world, wouldn't Trump have formed his own party instead of joining the GOP and then making that his own? I guess they had been softened up for him already by the Tea Party and this RINO thing which in a simple acronym rejects all moderates AND re-writes history to maintain that the Rs have always been like this.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
also, I should mention that if the democratic primary were held today, I honestly have no idea who I would vote for. it's foolish to hold out for the perfect candidate to come along, they all have flaws and positions I don't share, but goddamn I'm not excited about any of the choices. it's a real problem.
Same Labour... my political viewpoint has sadly changed from a "vote for" situation to a "vote against the monsters in charge now" one.
 

version

Well-known member
Yeah, this isn't far off what people were saying about Corbyn.

We have candidates on the debate stage talking about open borders and decriminalizing illegal immigration. They’re talking about doing away with nuclear energy and fracking. You’ve got Bernie Sanders talking about letting criminals and terrorists vote from jail cells. It doesn’t matter what you think about any of that, or if there are good arguments — talking about that is not how you win a national election. It’s not how you become a majoritarian party.

For fuck’s sake, we’ve got Trump at Davos talking about cutting Medicare and no one in the party has the sense to plaster a picture of him up there sucking up to the global elites, talking about cutting taxes for them while he’s talking about cutting Medicare back home. Jesus, this is so obvious and so easy and I don’t see any of the candidates taking advantage of it.

And this isn't far off the view of The Guardian etc.

I want to give you an example of the problem here. A few weeks ago, Binyamin Appelbaum, an economics writer for the New York Times, posted a snarky tweet about how LSU canceled classes for the National Championship game. And then he said, do the “Warren/Sanders free public college proposals include LSU, or would it only apply to actual schools?”

You know how fucking patronizing that is to people in the South or in the middle of the country? First, LSU has an unusually high graduation rate, but that’s not the point. It’s the goddamn smugness. This is from a guy who lives in New York and serves on the Times editorial board and there’s not a single person he knows that doesn’t pat him on the back for that kind of tweet. He’s so fucking smart.

Appelbaum doesn’t speak for the Democratic Party, but he does represent the urbanist mindset. We can’t win the Senate by looking down at people. The Democratic Party has to drive a narrative that doesn’t give off vapors that we’re smarter than everyone or culturally arrogant.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
It's scary right? Trump has a heavily committed base who'll turn out for him whatever.

I agree this one hundro.

By framing, repeating, and delivering a coherent, meaningful message that is relevant to people’s lives and having the political skill not to be sucked into every rabbit hole that somebody puts in front of you.

The Democratic Party is the party of African Americans. It’s becoming a party of educated suburbanites, particularly women. It’s the party of Latinos. We’re a party of immigrants. Most of the people aren’t into all this distracting shit about open borders and letting prisoners vote. They don’t care. They have lives to lead. They have kids. They have parents that are sick. That’s what we have to talk about. That’s all we should talk about.
 

Leo

Well-known member
this is all what's so frustrating about this crew of democratic candidates, even worse in regards to "independent" Bernie. living in a liberal bubble and playing to the echo chamber, ignorant to (or worse, dismissive of) the biggest concerns of most voters. carville is 100% right.
 

droid

Well-known member
this is all what's so frustrating about this crew of democratic candidates, even worse in regards to "independent" Bernie. living in a liberal bubble and playing to the echo chamber, ignorant to (or worse, dismissive of) the biggest concerns of most voters. carville is 100% right.

Except of course for the fact that Bernie's policies do seem to address the key concerns of most voters, and are generally very popular.

progressive%20programs.1553709766790.jpg


“These are bread and butter kitchen table issues that families are dealing with if you’re making less than $75,000 and I think that’s contributing to the fairly high Republican support numbers,″ said Micah Roberts, partner at Public Opinion Strategies, the Republican pollster for the survey.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/maj...uch-as-paid-maternity-leave-free-college.html



BERNIE SANDERS 'BEST' ON HEALTH CARE, THE ECONOMY, ENVIRONMENT AND IMMIGRATION IN NEW 2020 POLL

https://www.newsweek.com/2020-democ...s-polls-policies-democratic-socialism-1469949

And of course, wrt foreign policy, again Sanders' positions command a plurality of preference:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/1/7/21002895/bernie-sanders-2020-electability

Carville may be right on some points, but of course, there is this perennial problem, also afflicting others closer to home I see.

Centrist Pundits Assume Voters Agree with Them. Polling Tells a Different Story

https://inthesetimes.com/article/22...-green-new-deal-medicare-for-all-pelosi-chait
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That's encouraging, but it's important to remember that most of Labour's major policies going into December's election were popular, too:

Labour policies popularity-01.jpg

I think it's almost impossible to overstate the importance of the public's perception of a candidate on an intuitive and emotional level, totally divorced from their actual policies. This can hinge on as little as a single word and, even in the case of progressive candidates facing an uphill struggle as the Overton window shifts ever rightwards, can't always be blamed on a hostile right-wing media. Corbyn actually did describe members of Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends, as much as many of his supporters would've love to think this had been invented by the Telegraph. Likewise I bet there are tons of low-to-middling-income voters in the USA who like the sound of higher taxes for the very rich, affordable healthcare, better job security and so on, but who are wary of Sanders because he openly describes himself as a socialist, a word that's virtually taboo in mainstream American discourse.
 
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Leo

Well-known member
yeah, and the missing part of those polls is the followup question: "in order to fund all of these wonderful freebies, your taxes will need to double. are you still in favor of them in that case?"

watch those number plummet.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
yeah, and the missing part of those polls is the followup question: "in order to fund all of these wonderful freebies, your taxes will need to double. are you still in favor of them in that case?"

watch those number plummet.

Sadly I think a lot of people are put off by the idea of tax rises in general even if their own tax bill were to remain exactly the same.
 

droid

Well-known member
That's encouraging, but it's important to remember that most of Labour's major policies going into December's election were popular, too:

As I said several pages back. The difference between Corbyn and Sanders is that Sanders is actually very popular.
 

droid

Well-known member
yeah, and the missing part of those polls is the followup question: "in order to fund all of these wonderful freebies, your taxes will need to double. are you still in favor of them in that case?"

watch those number plummet.

Ridiculous framing, and of course, its based on a false premise. The US is one of the most unequal societies in the world with by far the biggest military spend. A wealth tax and diversion of some of the defence budget would provide massive budgetary space - and both measures are supported by most Americans.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
As I said several pages back. The difference between Corbyn and Sanders is that Sanders is actually very popular.

Sure, but he's not actually the Dem candidate yet, and that could change if he gets the ticket and the liberal media manoeuvres against him in a serious way.

I sincerely hope he does succeed, and I think he stands a better chance than Corbyn did - fewer crankish tendencies and (AFAIK) potential closet-skeletons.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ridiculous framing, and of course, its based on a false premise. The US is one of the most unequal societies in the world with by far the biggest military spend. A wealth tax and diversion of some of the defence budget would provide massive budgetary space - and both measures are supported by most Americans.

In absolute terms, sure, because it has by far the biggest economy, but in terms of Gini income inequality coefficient it's pretty middling by global standards and is less unequal than many countries in Africa and Latin America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Of course it goes without saying that we could probably eradicate HIV with cash the Pentagon loses down the back of the couch each year.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I just want someone to beat Trump... avoid the end of the world kinda thing. So whoever is most likely to do that is brst I guess... but so many metrics with different answers.
 

Leo

Well-known member
Ridiculous framing, and of course, its based on a false premise. The US is one of the most unequal societies in the world with by far the biggest military spend. A wealth tax and diversion of some of the defence budget would provide massive budgetary space - and both measures are supported by most Americans.

not ridiculous at all, why do you think sanders and warren still to this day dodge the question of how they would pay for it all. a wealth tax would only scratch the surface, and no way in hell Mitch McConnell would put a military budget cut on the senate floor for a vote.

The Eye-Popping Cost of Medicare for All

Senator Elizabeth Warren’s refusal to answer repeated questions at last night’s debate about how she would fund Medicare for All underscores the challenge she faces finding a politically acceptable means to meet the idea’s huge price tag—a challenge that only intensified today with the release of an eye-popping new study.

The Urban Institute, a center-left think tank highly respected among Democrats, is projecting that a plan similar to what Warren and Senator Bernie Sanders are pushing would require $34 trillion in additional federal spending over its first decade in operation. That’s more than the federal government’s total cost over the coming decade for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid combined, according to the most recent Congressional Budget Office projections.

In recent history, only during the height of World War II has the federal government tried to increase taxes, as a share of the economy, as fast as would be required to offset the cost of a single-payer plan, federal figures show. There are “no analogous peacetime tax increases,” says Leonard Burman, a public-administration professor at Syracuse University and a former top tax official in both the Bill Clinton administration and at the CBO. Raising that much more tax revenue “is plausible in the sense that it is theoretically possible,” Burman told me. “But the revolution that would come along with it would get in the way.”
 
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