Leo

Well-known member
good articles, I stand corrected on the primary issue.

people who think Biden is more "electable" have failed, here or elsewhere, to make an actual solid case for it

it's always some combination of vagueness (national feeling, empathy), fallacies (as noted above), pathos (appeal to fear), and/or red-baiting

which doesn't really matter admittedly. all that matters is whether enough voters believe he's more electable, and if that outweighs other criteria.

presumably there is some reason -- or combination of reasons -- why they believe that, though. it could be a gut feel, it could be a hankering to return to what they perceive as Obama-era normalcy. it's probably different reasons for different people. we've never had a president like trump, so no way to predict what the reaction of voters will be after four years. not sure it's possible, particularly in this campaign season versus trump, to make "an actual solid case". guesswork (aka speculation) is all we have.
 

version

Well-known member
I sympathise, it's impossible not to... I'm mainly fantasizing about Trump catching coronavirus now.

Coronavirus case at CPAC brings outbreak closer to Trump, threatening to upend his routine amid reelection bid

A growing sense of concern and uncertainty about the reach of the novel coronavirus has begun to take hold in the White House, after an attendee at a recent political conference where President Trump spoke tested positive for covid-19, the disease caused by the virus.

Trump was photographed shaking hands with Matt Schlapp, the chairman of the American Conservative Union, who confirmed that he had been in direct contact with the infected man during the Conservative Political Action Conference last month.

The handshake at CPAC put Trump just two degrees of separation away from the virus that he has sought to minimize as it has rocked financial markets and tested his leadership skills. While the White House has maintained that Trump was never in direct contact with the infected person and does not have any symptoms, the potential close call at a political event underscores how the outbreak threatens to upend the president’s routine as he campaigns for reelection.
 

version

Well-known member
Biden allegedly just threatened to fight some idiot who claimed he wanted to take away his guns because he saw it in a viral video.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I can't read that article apparently Version, can you copy and paste? Or else write your own summary in a few aptly chosen lines.
 

version

Well-known member
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department moved on Monday to drop charges against two Russian shell companies accused of financing schemes to interfere in the 2016 election, saying that they were exploiting the case to gain access to delicate information that Russia could weaponize.

The companies, Concord Management and Concord Consulting, were charged in 2018 in an indictment secured by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, along with 13 Russians and another company, the Internet Research Agency. Prosecutors said they operated a sophisticated scheme to use social media to spread disinformation, exploit American social divisions and try to subvert the 2016 election.

Unlike the others under indictment, Concord fought the charges in court. But instead of trying to defend itself, Concord seized on the case to obtain confidential information from prosecutors, then mount a campaign of information warfare, a senior Justice Department official said.

At one point, prosecutors complained that a cache of documents that could potentially be shared with the defendants included details about the government’s sources and methods for investigation, among its most important secrets. Prosecutors feared Concord might publish them online.

With the case set to go to trial next month, prosecutors recommended that the Justice Department drop the charges to preserve national security interests and prevent Russia from weaponizing delicate American law enforcement information, according to the official. The prosecutors also weighed the benefits of securing a guilty verdict against the companies, which cannot be meaningfully punished in the United States, against the risk of exposing national security secrets in order to win in court.

“Concord has been eager and aggressive in using the judicial system to gather information about how the United States detects and prevents foreign election interference,” prosecutors said in a motion filed in court on Monday. At the same time, the firm has tried to stymie the judicial process, including by concealing facts and documents and submitting a false affidavit.

Department officials denied that the decision to drop the charges was intended to dismantle Mr. Mueller’s work, noting that prosecutors are still pursuing charges against the 13 Russians and the Internet Research Agency.

On Monday, the court granted the motion to dismiss the charges against the Concord defendants.

Federal prosecutors in Virginia are still pursuing a separate case against a Russian national, Elena Alekseevna Khusyaynova, who managed a multimillion-dollar budget for the troll farm efforts to sow division against Russian adversaries, including the United States. Ms. Khusyaynova, 44, worked for several entities owned by Yevgeny V. Prigozhin, a Russian oligarch sometimes known as “Putin’s chef.” Mr. Prigozhin, a part owner of the Concord companies, was among the Russians whom Mr. Mueller secured indictments against.

Democrats in Congress have accused Attorney General William P. Barr of trying to undo the work of the special counsel. They cite Mr. Barr’s appointment of a prosecutor to investigate whether the F.B.I. abused its power in investigating the Trump campaign, his intervention in the sentencing of the Trump associate Roger J. Stone Jr. and his installation of an outside prosecutor to review the case against Michael T. Flynn, President Trump’s former national security adviser.

The charges against Concord were part of the special counsel’s first major look at Russia’s election interference campaign in 2016. The companies were established to finance a wide-ranging scheme to steal the identities of American citizens and pose as political activists to exacerbate the nation’s divisions over immigration, religion and race to manipulate voters and inflame tensions, prosecutors said.

Investigators for the special counsel’s office determined that the Internet Research Agency and Concord Management and Consulting were tools of the Russian state, acting at the direction of the Kremlin. Their internet trolls, centered in St. Petersburg, Russia, aimed to suppress Democratic turnout by targeting African-American voters and sought to provoke voters on the right.

In January 2019, the federal government accused Concord of violating a protective court order designed to safeguard information shared among lawyers on the case. Prosecutors said a trove of nonclassified information they had turned over to Concord’s defense team had turned up on a website the previous October.

A message on a newly created Twitter account read: “We’ve got access to the Special Counsel Mueller’s probe database as we hacked Russian server with info from the Russian troll case Concord LLC v. Mueller. You can view all the files Mueller had about the IRA and Russian collusion. Enjoy the reading!”

Mixed in with a hefty portion of irrelevant material, the prosecutors said, were more than a thousand files matching those the government had turned over to the defense team in an information-sharing process known as discovery. Government computers storing the files had not been hacked, prosecutors said, suggesting that the source of the information was the defendant.

The companies also failed to produce documents subpoenaed by prosecutors and ignored orders to send a representative to court to answer questions.

The court record in the case shows a constant stream of pleadings by both sides, with nearly 400 docket entries since Concord was indicted. At least some of the back and forth has taken place out of public view because of classified filings or requests for protective orders filed by the government.

The trial team included Adam C. Jed, who had worked on Mr. Mueller’s team, and Heather Alpino, a Justice Department National Security Division lawyer who worked closely with the special counsel’s office. Both signed the brief filed on Monday. Last month, Mr. Jed withdrew from the Stone case after Mr. Barr intervened over prosecutors’ sentencing recommendation.

Officials in the National Security Division and the U.S. attorney’s office in Washington reviewed the recommendation and approved it before it was filed.

Testifying before Congress last summer, Mr. Mueller warned that the Russian effort to interfere with American presidential politics was still underway. “They’re doing it as we sit here,” he told the House Intelligence Committee. “And they expect to do it in the next campaign.”

As the 2020 campaign ramps up, American officials have said that Russia is again working to inflame racial tensions, including by inciting violence by white supremacist groups.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Thanks mate, I will read it... seems a strange story.
Anyway, I see Trump has no secured enough votes to guarantee he will be the Rep nominee for the pres election (unless he dies before then which seems quite possible).
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
What I find absolutely staggeringly amazing is that Trump has been on telly for ages saying it's a hoax, it's under control, it will disappear... then he realises it might hurt him and panics and lies about the tests and a cure and so on and what he said last week - and yet people who have seen this are still saying "Thanks president for all your hard work, we love you so much, it's great that you're in charge now". Even after everything it's totally fucking bonkers belief. This is why the world is fucked I guess.
 

catalog

Well-known member
Is this not the same thing (or similar) to how the middle/upper class Fabian socialists can't understand why the working class don't join the revolution? As in, they don't see that the working class just wanna become bourgeoisie? And could not really care about their peers, they just wanna progress themselves? So, in this case, I mean that these people who accept trump's shit and come back for more, even with proof he's lied or whatever, they don't care cos they aspire to be him, rather than people who understand the way the world works or whatever. Sorry not sure that makes sense but I can explain more
 

Leo

Well-known member
What I find absolutely staggeringly amazing is that Trump has been on telly for ages saying it's a hoax, it's under control, it will disappear... then he realises it might hurt him and panics and lies about the tests and a cure and so on and what he said last week - and yet people who have seen this are still saying "Thanks president for all your hard work, we love you so much, it's great that you're in charge now". Even after everything it's totally fucking bonkers belief. This is why the world is fucked I guess.

don't overthink it, rich. the simple answer is extreme tribalism leading to a north korea "dear leader"-type cult of personality. part of the GOP (pence, McConnell, Graham, etc.) know he's an unqualified dope but suck up to get what they want and keep quiet for fear of his base, and part of them worship him as the guy who tells it like it is and sticks it to the "elites".
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Is this not the same thing (or similar) to how the middle/upper class Fabian socialists can't understand why the working class don't join the revolution? As in, they don't see that the working class just wanna become bourgeoisie? And could not really care about their peers, they just wanna progress themselves? So, in this case, I mean that these people who accept trump's shit and come back for more, even with proof he's lied or whatever, they don't care cos they aspire to be him, rather than people who understand the way the world works or whatever. Sorry not sure that makes sense but I can explain more

Can't remember who said:

"Americans never think of themselves as poor, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires"

- but it's a great line.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
is this not the same thing (or similar) to how the middle/upper class Fabian socialists can't understand why the working class don't join the revolution?
Could be could be.... except obviously that they are wide-eyed idealists and I'm simply reporting the cold facts. But whatever it is it's very frustrating.
 

catalog

Well-known member
Yeah maybe not the same thing actually, but ive got fabians on the mind cos just been reading about them. I do think that a general issue with trump, brexit, loads of stuff, is this now very noticeable pattern:

1. People vote for an unusual candidate/proposition, despite all available evidence that its not going to be in their best interests to do so.
2. A load of other people tell them they are wrong/present evidence to show why the candidate/proposition is a liar or a lie.
3. The candidate or proposition gets caught in a massve lie.
4. More people vote for the candidate/propostion.

I know its more complex, i know john will say its a systemic issue that is in crisis, that is the motor, but i think this general pattern is true, so at some point, if you class yourself as part of the ‘load of other people’ in number 2, at some point you surely have to accept that the strategy is not working.
 

catalog

Well-known member
Yeah im not having a dig at you personally, sorry if thats how its coming across. I get that its coming from a good place, the concern and frustration. But i dont know how to else to say it to people now. A new way of thinking through these issues is required. I wish i knew what it was.
 

Leo

Well-known member
the other element is parts of the establishment often hijack, or ride on the coattails of, the outsider/populist candidate. in the states, like I mentioned previously, think of life-long small government conservative republicans like Mitch McConnell, Lyndsay Graham, Ted Cruz, etc., who make the cold calculation that suddenly and shamelessly supporting a candidate/president who doesn't hold traditional conservative values is a beneficial short-term trade-off in order to get other things they want (tax breaks for corporations and the rich, conservative judges, etc.).

anti-establishment/anti-washington sentiment played a large part of getting trump elected, for sure, but with no small amount of help from establishment republicans who saw and continue to see him as a temporary vessel to get what they want.
 
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