Trump

he is a lot more moderate than people give him credit for. also he was up against a formidable and supremely well-funded political machine with ties to most major media outlets that painted him as a racist/fascist/mysoginist when he clearly wasn't. we'll see, but i suspect he will be far more centric than expected on many issues (an d he already is in the case of trans bathrooms and so on where he is on the left of his party).

i do think you have made good points overall and understand your fears of an erosion of democracy, but think that has largely taken place long before trump arrived. which is why his anti-corruption and america-first rhetoric resonated with so many people.

droid said:

I watched most of Trump's stump speeches, and if you could ignore the racism, misogyny, incitement to violence, frighteningly cavalier attitude towards nuclear weapons, hatred of the press and climate denial - sure, you could see some populist anti-globalisation rhetoric that made some sense.

This has all been belied by his choice of cabinet and his words and actions post election.

Click to expand...

i know some very pro-environment people who are pro-nuclear. i'm not one of them but i can see their point. i honestly did not see the racism, misoginy and incitement to violence you say you did; perplexing because i remember zero instances of these things and find mostly evidence to the contrary. for example he has employed (and paid equally) women in high places for decades. en fin!

bruno said:

we'll see,

Click to expand...

Until then - 'Heil Trump'?

bruno said:

i know some very pro-environment people who are pro-nuclear. i'm not one of them but i can see their point. i honestly did not see the racism, misoginy and incitement to violence you say you did; perplexing because i remember zero instances of these things and find mostly evidence to the contrary. for example he has employed (and paid equally) women in high places for decades. en fin!

Click to expand...

He called Mexicans rapists. He said he likes to grab women by the pussy. He told his supporters he would pay their legal fees if they attacked protestors.

This is the part where I repeat myself. Have you been in a cave for the last year?

droid said:

He called Mexicans rapists. He said he likes to grab women by the pussy. He told his supporters he would pay their legal fees if they attacked protestors.

This is the part where I repeat myself. Have you been in a cave for the last year?

Click to expand...

nonsense, he said many (not all) mexicans who cross the border are involved in drug/people trafficking and rape, which is a fact when you see crime statistics in texas and border states. the incidence of rape and killing of illegal immigrants by the very people smugglers they rely on is well documented. which is why the wall thing (most of which exists anyway, as you can see in the u.s./mexico border) makes sense.

re: grabbing, he said this in a private setting ten years ago and i agree it's crass, distasteful, not something i would say but at the same time there are many instances of empowering women as well (first woman to build a skyscraper, many women in well-paid top positions throughout his organisations, etc) that are conveniently ignored. i think he may be like many people, flawed but not without redeemable qualities.

the legal fees for violent supporters thing sounds like nonsense and out of character, i could be wrong but i will check that out.

my cave is very comfortable and well equipped but i stick my head out from time to time, far more than other cave dwellers i suspect. let's not pretend we all don't live in caves!

droid said:

Until then - 'Heil Trump'?

Click to expand...

not really, i will keep my eyes open and exercise my right to have a different opinion on trump and other issues.

bruno said:

nonsense, he said many (not all) mexicans who cross the border are involved in drug/people trafficking and rape, which is a fact when you see crime statistics in texas and border states. the incidence of rape and killing of illegal immigrants by the very people smugglers they rely on is well documented. which is why the wall thing (most of which exists anyway, as you can see in the u.s./mexico border) makes sense.

Click to expand...

'They're rapists, some of them I assume are good people' is precisely what he said. You cant rewrite his own words.

re: grabbing, he said this in a private setting ten years ago and i agree it's crass, distasteful, not something i would say but at the same time there are many instances of empowering women as well (first woman to build a skyscraper, many women in well-paid top positions throughout his organisations, etc) that are conveniently ignored. i think he may be like many people, flawed but not without redeemable qualities.

Click to expand...

Sure, sexual assault isnt misogyny if you promote women.

the legal fees for violent supporters thing sounds like nonsense and out of character, i could be wrong but i will check that out.

Click to expand...

He said this in a speech, directed at a protestor.

my cave is very comfortable and well equipped but i stick my head out from time to time, far more than other cave dwellers i suspect. let's not pretend we all don't live in caves!

Click to expand...

I suspect your cave can only receive fox news.

When Mexico sends its people [referring to those crossing the border illegally], they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. Their rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

Click to expand...

Quoted in the SSC article I posted earlier.

A bit more of the context:

TRUMP: When did we beat Japan at anything? They send their cars over by the millions, and what do we do? When was the last time you saw a Chevrolet in Tokyo? It doesn't exist, folks. They beat us all the time.

When do we beat Mexico at the border? They're laughing at us, at our stupidity. And now they are beating us economically. They are not our friend, believe me. But they're killing us economically.

The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else's problems.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you. It's true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we're getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They're sending us not the right people.

It's coming from more than Mexico. It's coming from all over South and Latin America, and it's coming probably -- probably -- from the Middle East. But we don't know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don't know what's happening. And it's got to stop and it's got to stop fast.

Click to expand...

Right so the nearly 6 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the US are criminals and rapists apart from some good people.

No echoes of white supremacist rhetoric in that statement at all.

What you originally wrote was, "He called Mexicans rapists." But that's not really true. What he said is that the best Mexicans are not crossing the border illegally, whereas those that do bring a lot of problems, including drugs, crime and rape, although some of them are good people.

I find the constant rhetorical overreach about Trump and his supporters quite suspicious.

droid said:

This is only about 48 hours worth of examples of his madness. The guy is a flaming dumpster filled with shit being pushed down the street by a phalanx of despicable dead eyed corporate & political criminals.

Click to expand...

His aesthetics are rather questionable too. I mean, golden rugs and curtains?

(this may be not as insignificant as it firstly appears. Gold in connection with representation of political power has a certain meaning, at least for people of knowledge of European history)

Apart from his socking it to uppity ethics and women what is it that you (Bruno/Vim) really like about him?

vimothy said:

I find the constant rhetorical overreach about Trump and his supporters quite suspicious.

Click to expand...

Hardly a one way street , let's all remember the "Obama is a commie" , "Obamacare is communism" (just two examples), or the anti-gunlaw-hysteria on the right.

And the "let's give the guy a chance" rhetorics coming from the right (which could be translated in "don't you dare critisize the mighty leader now") smells a wee bit of hypocrisy too. Remembering the Republicans were out to obstruct Obama from day one. Same happened with Clinton in the 1990s.

But you got a point there too, regarding the millenial-lefts tendency of redefine what sexism/misoginy/racism means. "Redefine" meaning broaden those terms to the extent they stop being useful. Of course, that's just my views and I am aware of the fact chunks of dissensus possibly sees me as a proto-fascist anyways bc I don't subscribe to questionable concepts like "white privilege" and "identity politics".

I completely agree. In fact I mentioned upthread the parallel hysteria with which Obama was greeted. It seems like a permanent feature of American politics, perhaps a sublimated form of (characteristically American) religious enthusiasm and millenarian angst.

James Ellroy is good on that (jewselveldt etc)

vimothy said:

I find the constant rhetorical overreach about Trump and his supporters quite suspicious.

Click to expand...

Because they're not trying to track the truth or develop a rational, consistent position on matters of lasting importance (eg. the idea of the nation); they're primarily attempting to convey something about their own personal qualities and affiliations (post-truth). This can have amusing consequences if, as was the case of my date on Saturday, following the simple anti-Trump heuristic (Trump is bad so everything he does is bad and can never be condoned) leads one's interlocutor to wax lyrical about ISIS rather than admit that something may have been lost in turning up one's signal to 11.

And there's also the magical thinking that hopes that you can defeat evil by personifying it and damning the person.

vimothy said:

What you originally wrote was, "He called Mexicans rapists." But that's not really true. What he said is that the best Mexicans are not crossing the border illegally, whereas those that do bring a lot of problems, including drugs, crime and rape, although some of them are good people.

Click to expand...

Sorry Vim, but that is true. He called Mexicans rapists. I didnt say he called every Mexican a rapist.

As I said, there are 6 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the US. He made a blanket accusation of rape and criminality against them with a minor caveat that 'some' might be good people.

He doubled down on this a few weeks later calling Mexicans and other immigrants 'rapists and killers'.

He claimed a hispanic American judge was unfit to hear a case against him because he was Mexican.

There are dozens of other statements demonising immigrants along racial lines. This is all a precise echo of white supremacist and KKK rhetoric dating back to the 1920's, which presumably he and his team are aware of seeing as there have repeatedly shared neo-nazi memes.

But lets but that aside and look at the responses to his statements. The KKK, Alt-reich, US Neo-nazis, Jewmerica T-shirt wearers, racist birthers, Le Pen, Wliders, Farage, every strain of European fascist, nativist and racist all support Trump because of his racist language. The left oppose Trump because of his racist language, and even the mainstream establishment agree that he has made racist statements.

It is quite remarkable that literally the entire political spectrum is an agreement that he is racist - everybody pretty much, apart for yourself, Bruno & Alt-Reich & Trump spokesmen trying to appear civilised.

I find the constant rhetorical overreach about Trump and his supporters quite suspicious.

Click to expand...

I find the constant myopia and denial of reality by self-appointed contrarians astonishing. Still, I guess we shouldnt be surprised at an inability to recognise racism from the man who said: "The Palestinians don't even care for the lives of their own children".

Given that it's not logical to hold all Mexican rapists and that Trump also said that among them are 'good people', a more charitable transcription of ðeə ˈreɪpɪsts may well have been 'their rapists' rather than 'they're rapists'.