Trump

IdleRich said:

I sorta agree with this, most US presidents would have made the right noises and done the wrong thing, Trump makes the wrong noises and does the wrong thing, which is.... better?

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In theory it makes it easier for the observer to hold onto reality, because Trump's mechanisms for destroying reality are less well-honed than those of more 'professional' presidents*. Therefore sometimes he speaks plain unfiltered truth, something most politicians never do for fear of losing out from it.

The problem is that a lot of the people who voted for him don't give a shit. Which is variant on the notion that 'if only we were able to explain the truth to them, they'd come over to our way of thinking' (the basic left-wing political tactic for ever) is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how human beings operate.


*the Clintons, the Blairs, the Obamas being the ultimate here, I guess.

Trump is a political Cult

Me not being American and all I am just an observer from afar, however he is paradigmatic for a lot of Eruopean politics these days as well (Salvini in Italy, Freedom Party in Austria, AfD in Germany, the UKIP etc). To me that whole Trump phenomenon appears to be more of a political cult than anything else. His base is totally devoted to their cult-leader/saviour Trump - everything he says no matter how crazy is considered the truth, and everything the Trump critics/left/"mainstreram Media" says is fake news/propaganda. That's also the reason his base is unrerachable for reasoning and sensible arguments. They have built their hermetic world of "alternative facts".

So we all understand and agree that Trump is different from other politicians. His base are impervious to reason, don't read the news etc etc so that whatever he does even if it is clearly callous, a lie, or in complete opposition to the professed values of his followers it has no effect on his popularity. Again and again we keep reiterating the above and being shocked when a particularly egregious or blatant example arises. But we're stuck in a kind of loop, just shaking our heads in horror - arguably repeating the same actions and expecting different results in an enactment of one of the famous definitions of insanity. But what should we - or rather those whose task really is to oppose him - what should they actually do? Or is it just a matter of hoping that there are more people outside his natural constituency than inside it so that he can be defeated?

His base is shrinking and its not enough for him to win again as things currently stand. He's lost the independents and the suburbs.

As an aside. There was a documentary on telly the other day about Trump and it struck me how different he seemed when he was younger. Even when throwing up his most brash penis substitutes all over New York and Atlantic City, in interview he came across as more thoughtful, more diffident, more given to introspection (all of these qualities are relative of course) and more willing/able to converse in a more intelligent manner that involved longer sentences, words that were less simplistic etc etc In short, he seemed less unpleasant and more intelligent - strikingly so in fact. Now I don't know if the change that has come over him is the result of a life of getting whatever he wanted all the time. Or maybe he noticed that being brash and unpleasant won him results in the boardroom or increased his popularity or what. Maybe he's just more impatient these days. Whatever the reason though, the change is, to me, very large and very noticeable. Not sure what it means but I thought it was worth remarking.

IdleRich said:

now I don't know if the change that has come over him is the result of a life of getting whatever he wanted all the time. Or maybe he noticed that being brash and unpleasant won him results in the boardroom or increased his popularity or what. Maybe he's just more impatient these days. Whatever the reason though, the change is, to me, very large and very noticeable. Not sure what it means but I thought it was worth remarking.

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Obviously he's cunning enough to know what plays well with his base, although perhaps it's just that he's stumbled into a base desperate (or ignorant) enough to love all the idiotic amoral shit he says without premeditation?

Also he's old, and older than his age because he's eating nothing but cheeseburgers, drinking nothing but pepsi, reading nothing but twitter and never doing any exercise. If he wasn't rich he'd likely be dead by now.

pretty much the only thing that can be done is to vote him out of office in 2020. you can't replace him for lying or saying stupid shit, and he'd have to break a pretty major law to get bounced (and even then, the constitution is vague about the ability to indict a sitting president). and he'll never be shamed into resigning, like Nixon.

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Yeah, vote him out, obviously. My question is "how?" - or in more detail, my question is actually more about what can be done to convince a Trump voter to change his allegiance. Sure he might be voted out by changing demographics and so on, but suppose the exact same people who voted in 2016 were going to vote in the next general election, would there be any way to win over any of the hardcore Trumpists? Sure there are a few undecided types in the middle (and as discussed above), an increasingly small number of people who are not sworn to one side or the other. But for those who are, effectively, sworn to be Trumpies, is there anything that can be done to alter their views? And for someone to defeat Trump it would be necessary to find some kind of key that won over not one but a large group of them. I'm talking about the people of whom Droid said above;

also, it's pointless to keep asking "how can trump's base agree with what he's just said/done?"

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The people who are absolutely dyed-in-the-wool US patriots but who have no problem with Trump saying that he believes Putin over the FBI, those who believe that serving your country in the army is the highest calling but who have no issue supporting Trump when he groundlessly insults a decorated veteran... in short the people that Trump was referring to when he said that he said that he could could shoot someone in the middle of 1st Avenue (or whatever it was) without losing their votes. The ones that in the above debate people have described as not reading, not reading the news, not analysing things, not caring etc etc

Books that provide insight into the advent of the Trump era...

The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy, Christopher Lasch

The Tea Party - Three Principles, Elizabeth Price Foley

What else....

revolt of the elites and culture of narcissism are required reading

I was hoping you would be able to flesh out the reading list, Vimothy!

Final results look like dems +41 in the house. Reps +2 in the senate and Dems +7 in Governor races plus a huge dem sweep in State legislatures.

In retrospect, at the high end of credible predictions.

You know everything is fucked when Marco Rubio is lecturing your government on morality twice in one week, and both times he's unequivocally correct. Dark times.

Its the endgame now.

droid said:

Its the endgame now.

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I don't disagree - the latest Mueller/SDNY filings are a massive BEGINNING OF THE END sign - but what do you think the endgame looks like, exactly?

for everyone beyond Trump himself, including sons (and ofc Kushner), anything goes at this point

but actual impeachment still seems quite unlikely - House Dems can pass it thru at leisure in upcoming session but they'd never be able to convict in Senate, as both sides know

if it's known to be futile, could wind up seeming petty, and engendering backlash - certainly right-wing press would strive mightily to incite such - for little gain

further, 2020 jockeying already looms large and I'd doubt party wants to expend vast amounts on energy on a doomed impeachment - probably to just maintain pressure with ongoing investigations

seems to me the Damocles sword of criminal charges once he leaves office - a drum Schiff + others are already beating - as hefty club/bargaining tool would be far more useful

I grant, if he somehow does win reelection - only because I never trust the Democrats to not fuck a sure thing up - the political calculus changes

whatever happens, it must be acknowledged that Mueller has already lead probably the greatest, in almost every way, major investigation in American political history, rivaled only by Watergate

not as many indictments/convictions as Watergate (yet) but in scope, speed, efficacy he's already surpassed it, and in a vastly more complicated case

in perhaps the most astounding American presidency ever, its most astounding fact may by the investigation toppling it - even in this age of daily wtf exhaustion, that's a wondrous thing

ofc we'll all be dead in x years from climate change as we continue spinning the wheels of the capitalist world-engine ever faster, but in the meantime, credit where it's due

@craner and vimothy above - first, I'd cosign Lasche

another invaluable piece is Hofstadter - The Paranoid Style in American Politics

particularly apt at the height of the Tea Party, but still highly useful to understanding the Trumpian post-factual age of fake news, QAnon, Pizzagate, etc

really it's an essay for all seasons of American politics because paranoia is and has always has been integral to American politics

in fact, on that very note I would also recommend Ron Chernow's biography (yes, the one that inspired the musical) of Alexander Hamilton, which I recently read

or any other definitive work about the beginning of the Republic - that is the 1790s

when the Founding Fathers had to descend from their lofty constitutional and/or Revolutionary peaks to the vilest, bitterest, bare-knuckled day-to-day politics

even worse than now, as no standards of press etc civility had yet been established to pretend to care about (tho tbf, they did have dueling)

not only did the 2 sides passionately hate each, they constantly obsessed about each others secret plots to impose tyranny, overthrow the Constitution, sell the country to England/France, etc