luka

Well-known member
I agree, we should all be staving in the heads of our rivals in order to achieve dominance and present ourselves as the most attractive prospect for mating.

as i say it's not very sophisticated but then with tea nothing is put forward as a serious intervention it's all diversionary. he's not really that stupid he's just dedicated to gumming up the gears.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
The fact is that our diet is unsustainable in terms of efficient land use, water use, feed for livestock, deforestation (which alone contributes about 20% of emissions), leading to desertification and loss of biodiversity. Phosphorous and nitrogen use for feed erodes soil sustainability (despite the supposed benefits of grazing) and pollutes waterways and oceans. On top of that excessive antibiotic use in agriculture creates superbugs and pathogens spread from wild animals through livestock and then to humans, and will probably be the source of the next major pandemic.

There are problems with alternatives as well, but industrial meat production is an unmitigated disaster. Even if we dont sharply reduce our production and intake, we will soon be forced to do so.

OK, well that makes a bit more sense than your cryptic "meat is killing the soil". I agree that factory farming is pretty environmentally bad, I mean that's just obvious, but you can buy meat that isn't factory farmed (and costs correspondingly more). But to go from that to advocating veganism is like saying "Drinking a bottle of vodka a day is very bad for you, so you should be teetotal".

And your numbers still sound pretty crazy. All the sources I've seen say livestock contribute to somewhere between 10 and 20% of global GHG emissions (estimates of 14-18% here). And the vast majority of that comes from cows, so it's a beef/dairy issue, not really a meat issue.

Plus, as I've said, soy is an environmental disaster because it's mostly grown in South America, often on previously forested land cleared for agriculture, and the popularity of vegetarianism/veganism is leading to an explosion in demand even while meat consumption is falling in many parts of the developed world.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I agree, we should all be staving in the heads of our rivals in order to achieve dominance and present ourselves as the most attractive prospect for mating.

You say that like it doesn't happen all the time. It's just done at the level of the nation-state rather than the tribe or individual.
 

luka

Well-known member
You say that like it doesn't happen all the time. It's just done at the level of the nation-state rather than the tribe or individual.

and youre saying it's perverse to try to swim against that current. those are the positions. and that's why youre not on the team.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
Are you vegetarian or vegan? Because there is still a relationship of dominance and submission if you use any animal products, not just meat per se.

@Tea. actually this is very interesting. i wonder, in some respects if it is more ethical to kill and eat meat than keep livestock in permanent captivity to produce dairy and eggs. more and more that's the opinion i'm coming round to. if not just because dairy and eggs make me sick (a transference of their negative energy possibly :cool:) while meat, in modest amounts, doesn't.

after all... at the end of the day... we're all worm food.

i have some sympathy for the pro meat arguments. there was that sustainability case-study with the guy who reared goats for milking them (man was a vegetarian) - and he found, after much hand-wringing, the only way to proceed was to kill the baby male goats (kids?)

society definitely should eat less meat though innit. or as now the reviled lsd-maniac michael pollan said "eat food, not so much, mainly plants"
 

firefinga

Well-known member
society definitely should eat less meat though innit. or as now the reviled lsd-maniac michael pollan said "eat food, not so much, mainly plants"

Meat eating on a mass-basis is a relatively young development. The vast majority of people in the past didn't have that luxury anyways. The ultimate crux, at least imo, in this question isn't so much meat or vegetarian/vegan. It's basically the fact industrialized agriculture definitley hasd more negative than positive effects. They have a very effective lobby though.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
and youre saying it's perverse to try to swim against that current. those are the positions. and that's why youre not on the team.

What team would that be? Your team? Team Good?

I'm reminded of all your rants that end "kill them all"...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
@Tea. actually this is very interesting. i wonder, in some respects if it is more ethical to kill and eat meat than keep livestock in permanent captivity to produce dairy and eggs. more and more that's the opinion i'm coming round to.

This has occurred to me too. I mean, I eat meat and dairy foods anyway, but I think from the POV of reducing animal suffering it's probably better to eat meat and shun eggs/dairy than vice-versa.
 

droid

Well-known member
Its not indifference, its sadistic pleasure in cruelty to animals. One of the three early signs of psychopathy in serial killers.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Is anyone able to shed some light on why being indifferent to or enjoying hurting animals as a child is considered to be a sign of mental illness, but doing the same as an adult isn't?

Are you sure about that? I reckon MH professionals would probably consider it significant if an adult they were interested in made a habit of torturing cats or whatever.

Edit: depends on what you mean by 'hunting for sport'. I have no problem with hunting (meaning shooting) for food - ethically speaking it's surely far preferable to (most) farming practices. If you mean foxhunting with dogs, yeah, that's pretty indefensible, but I guess the people who do that (or used to) would say it's about the thrill of the chase rather than the gore of the kill, as such. The logical endpoint of this sort of 'sport' is something like badger baiting, where there is no 'chase' at all and it's just about the gore and suffering.

Edit: sorry Leo, good point, lol. Maybe sufi will transplant all these posts into the existing veganism thread. Or maybe he won't, who knows.
 
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firefinga

Well-known member
it's a trump thread, talk about trump please not plants and cows thank you.

There is at least a connection between soy farmers of the mid-west who voted for Trump and are now being fucked over by Trump's trade-war with China.
So talking about plants and farming makes some sense also in a Trump thread.
 

luka

Well-known member
didnt we get here becuase of the correlation between glorifying meat eating, and especially red meat eating, and supporting trump. it's part of the same complex of rejection. of, to add a tiny bit of sophistication to teas naive formulation, giving in to a set of impulses and gorging them.

i think tea is right in that it is the return of the repressed and that deciding you can eat steak every day of the week is just another facet of the whole. it goes right along with climate change denial and points to the fact that it is reality denying. psychologically real without being reality congruent.

sorry thats a bit of a mess but i think you get what i mean
 

firefinga

Well-known member
didnt we get here becuase of the correlation between glorifying meat eating, and especially red meat eating, and supporting trump.

So is that actually really a thing? I mean are there people, wearing a MAGA hat, eating a bloody steak and while doing so posting pix on their instagram saying: "there, take that, u cultural vegan marxist, I am stuffing myself with a dead cow just to stick it to you"
 

luka

Well-known member
it's a movement. a movement of 8 year old boys in mens bodies, i will illustrate if you bear with me. i can flesh out this thesis!
 

luka

Well-known member
reminded of Bush's refusal to eat broccoli
YOU CANT MAKE ME EAT MY GREENS! I DONT LIKE THEM!
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
obviously Trump's visit was always a national shaming, but it's turning into a national humiliation for everyone including his 'host'. Expect him to say that a woman shouldn't be running a country by the end of the weekend
 
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