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Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I'm completely clueless about this subject (see: every subject other than Gucci Mane mixtapes circa 2009), so two minutes of Google research has enlightened me as to the possibility of a biological basis for gender 'dysmorphia': http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Mind you, I have no idea what I previously thought was the 'cause' of transgender identities. An aversion to all things masculine/feminine?

I'm not good at being a man, really, but I think I'd be even worse as a woman. Therefore I would say I identify as a domestic cat. I like lying around sleeping and I generally require feeding.
 

Benny B

Well-known member
I'm not sure biology, pseudo- or otherwise, has much to do with it. It seems to me to be an issue more of psychology (which can be useful, certainly, but is not in my view a science) and culture and society.



Look, I'm by no means the kind of headbanging trans-rights fanatic who gets furious when people say 'sex' instead of 'gender' or anything like that. As far as I can remember, I've fleetingly met two transgendered people in my life, ever. What puzzles me is the severe hostility - and I have seen reactions that are quite hostile - to the idea of including trans-women in feminism. Without getting deep into the arcana of gender theory, my objection to this position is mainly that it just seems so mean-spirited. What harm can it possibly do feminism to include this (in the scheme of things) tiny number of people who are not exactly likely to be undercover agents of Patriarchy?


Something to do with the invasion of female-only spaces by men perhaps?
(among other things)
 

Benny B

Well-known member
?



I'm not good at being a man, really, but I think I'd be even worse as a woman. Therefore I would say I identify as a domestic cat. I like lying around sleeping and I generally require feeding.


Taken to its logical conclusion, transgender identity politics would totally validate this.

Miaaaoww!
 

droid

Well-known member
Your strawmanning now Droid. You said yourself you don't know anything about deep green resistance, why not have a look at their website? They have a quite useful FAQ section that might enlighten you to their position.

Er, no, Im not, Im judging them solely on the contents of that article. In their own words:

Our analysis is informed by a century and a half of feminist theory and activism. Our views are in no way unique. We believe that a social system of male domination starts with human beings who are biologically male or female and creates two social classes of people: men and women. Socialization to either group can be a brutal process.

Men are made by socialization to masculinity. Being a man requires a psychology based on emotional numbness and a dichotomy of self and other. This is also the psychology required by soldiers, which is why we don’t think you can be a peace activist without being a feminist.

Female socialization is a process of psychologically constraining and breaking girls—otherwise known as “grooming”—to create a class of compliant victims. Femininity is a set of behaviors that are, in essence, ritualized submission.

We see nothing in the creation of gender to celebrate or embrace. As feminists, we are abolitionists.

Gender is completely a product of environment, it does not exist outside the social - this is their argument and thats exactly what I claimed their argument was.

They don't lack empathy for trans people at all, but they are entitled to respond to mindless misogynist abuse wherever it comes from.

And presumably those who arent happy with what they would deem to be 'mindless transphobic abuse' are equally entitled to respond?
 

droid

Well-known member
Taken to its logical conclusion, transgender identity politics would totally validate this.

Miaaaoww!


Reminds me of the arguments that were made against gay marriage here last year... ...taken to its logical conclusion what's to stop men marrying sheep, or women marrying cars?
 

Benny B

Well-known member
What they 'deem to be' transphobic abuse is actually just disagreement with their position. I've never seen dgr say anything remotely transphobic. This is what I meant by strawmanning.

Like I said before, there is lots that science doesn't know about the biological basis for gender. Otoh, mainly thanks to feminist analysis, we know ALOT about the social construction of gender norms.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
Related? VICE talks to the 'Otherkin' http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/from...y-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be (people who identify as non-human).

The distinction between otherkin and transgender is frequently outlined by users on Reddit; while there has been controversial research showing that being transgender might be caused by number of physical anomalies in the brain, including a difference in the brain's white matter, no such physical difference can be found for otherkin. While otherkin may protest that this is due to a lack of research, Azurel adds that "it's a significantly larger jump from 'other gender' to 'other species'".
 

droid

Well-known member
What they 'deem to be' transphobic abuse is actually just disagreement with their position. I've never seen dgr say anything remotely transphobic. This is what I meant by strawmanning.

From a previous post.

Do you deny and exclude trans people in your organization? Do you call trans women names like “trans boys?” Do you identify them as “deeply misogynistic” men who are trying to undermine women? Yes, those are direct quotes.

Lierre, you stated, “Well, I’ve personally been fighting about this since 1982. I think ‘transphobic’ is a ridiculous word. I have no strange fear of people who claim to be ‘trans.’ I deeply disagree with them, as do most radical feminists.” In summarizing your view on trans people, Rachel Ivy states, “men insisting they are women is insulting and absurd.” This is the blunt denial of trans people that you put forward, and Ivey goes on to declare, “there is no debate” over this issue in DGR.

http://earthfirstjournal.org/newswi...member-of-the-earth-first-journal-collective/

Claiming that the very existence of trans women is 'insulting and absurd' towards women strikes me as a phobic and abusive.
 
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Benny B

Well-known member
That response is very long and don't have time to read it all now but I will later, promise. Don't see what is abusive about calling anyone out on their misogyny be they male, female, straight, gay, trans or whatever someone identifies as.
 

droid

Well-known member
That response is very long and don't have time to read it all now but I will later, promise. Don't see what is abusive about calling anyone out on their misogyny be they male, female, straight, gay, trans or whatever someone identifies as.

“men insisting they are women is insulting and absurd.”

Is this idea that the very existence of trans-women is insulting to women transphobic?
 

Benny B

Well-known member
The equation that someone who likes lying around so therefore should be able to become a cat with transsexuals.


Believe me I have seen plenty of transgender people (usually while berating women on twitter) using the argument "I am whatever I claim to be" and expect to be taken seriously in a debate. "transphobe" and "TERF" are usually used as slurs against women who don't agree with them and when their non-arguments fail to convince.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Something to do with the invasion of female-only spaces by men perhaps?
(among other things)

Well that's fine if you take the commonsensical view that each person's gender is defined entirely by their biological sex. Obviously sex and gender coincide for the great majority but there are some people for whom that isn't the case.

If the purpose of feminism is to fight patriarchy, perhaps it would be a good idea to include people who are overwhelmingly likely to have been victims of patriarchal prejudice - perhaps to a greater extent than most cisgender women, even - and who have a strong interest in trying to bring about greater equality.

And "invasion" is sheer hyperbole - look out, sisters, the trannies are coming! Run for the hills!
 

luka

Well-known member
A little hyperbolic perhaps but equally I can imagine some women do feel that way and if they want to reserve their space for women only then that's their prerogative I would have thought.
 

droid

Well-known member
Believe me I have seen plenty of transgender people (usually while berating women on twitter) using the argument "I am whatever I claim to be" and expect to be taken seriously in a debate. "transphobe" and "TERF" are usually used as slurs against women who don't agree with them and when their non-arguments fail to convince.

Now THIS is strawmanning. Who cares?

And if youre arguing against people who claim your very existence is an insult, then I wonder - how exactly should you address them?
 

Benny B

Well-known member
Gotta go now, be back later.

A good article about feminism's problem with trans theory is "is transgender theory open to debate?" By Meghan Murphy. Highly recommended
 

droid

Well-known member
Well my perspective is that this is such a minor issue, a minute intersection of a minority LGBT concern with feminism - that perhaps rather than pillory trans-people (who, in general have a pretty awful time of it) with awful exclusionary and abusive gatekeeping rhetoric on points of principle, that they should either support them - or if they cant do that - just ignore them.
 
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