UK EU Referendum Thoughts

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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
A lot of voters are scumbags too tbf

True, but I don't think in anything like the same proportion as the House of Commons. Bear in mind the Tories have an absolute majority on a mandate made up of the votes of about 24% of the electorate.

And when people vote for terrible politicians it's usually more because they're gullible and/or misinformed than because they themselves are terrible people. They believed David Cameron when he said he'd protect the NHS and get rid of the deficit, and when he said Labour would bankrupt the country with reckless spending. The role played by the UK's overwhelmingly right-wing national press (and, increasingly, the BBC) can't be overstated here, of course.
 
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Woebot

Well-known member
well one thing is for certain - cameron's idea to get some improvements was a disaster.

he shouldn't have bothered. he should have just said - the eu is good - nuff said. he's really made very little headway. :rolleyes:
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Good point. Some people are not scumbags they are thick.
I agree with that.

Yes of course some people are thick, but even that, I think, is not really the main issue. Lots of highly intelligent people believe all sorts of nonsense. Or, where they have reliable knowledge, willfully fail to make obvious causal connections between facts they know, or invent spurious connections between unrelated facts. The prevalence of logical fallacies in people's thought processes is staggering - think of all those furious mathematics PhDs who wrote in to Marilyn vos Savant, telling her she was wrong about the Monty Hall problem (an elementary probability puzzle which any reasonably intelligent ten-year-old who comes to it without preconceptions should intuitively be able to understand).

This is by no means restricted to conservative-minded people, obviously. So some people are convinced that asylum seekers arriving in this country are automatically given a nice house to live in and lots of money, while other people refuse point blank to acknowledge that there might be a connection between the UK's severe and ever-worsening housing shortage and the more than 600,000 people settling in this country every year, to the point of insisting that anyone who might even consider there to be a connection must be - sigh - "racist" and therefore wrong and a grotesquely ugly freak, END OF.

This links in to the stuff in the other thread (the one about Trump, I think) regarding echo chambers and the tendency of the internet and social media in particular to reinforce people's existing views and prejudices far more than it exposes them to new points of view.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm thinking more and more that it's a case of Hobson's Choice: get shat on by Brussels, or get shat on by Westminster?
 

Woebot

Well-known member
Mildly for out here.

Because Democracy. And how its birthplace has been treated.

it's a difficult decision innit. right across the political spectrum (tho it seems mainly the right want out)

still turning it over. though many of the leave arguments seem like fantasies of sovereignty. as though we would suddenly be free.

on the other hand one key criteria seems to be security - and certainly the "safe" choice is usually the wrong one. much better to embrace insecurity in the modern world (cf all that is solid melts into air)
 

droid

Well-known member
It would mean the end of the UK, followed by an isolated England functioning primarily as a low tax European outpost for Financial services & Banking & as an Anglospheric military nuclear headquarters... Like Switzerland (except without the nice weather & high standard of living) crossed with Israel.

I like it. It has an honesty about. England could embrace both its future & past and relive the glory of the East India Company days without shame or censure.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
England could embrace both its future & past and relive the glory of the East India Company days without shame or censure.

Saw this the other day. Thought droid would appreciate it.

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droid

Well-known member
...anyone who thinks that the "ruling classes" form an "establishment" is nothing more than a paranoid fantasist...

“Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the State”


Just reading up on Gladio & the European stay at homes again, Licio Geili, Aldo Moro, Mino Pecorelli, Gen. Serravalle etc. and was wondering (apart from the self evident & obvious manifestations of establishment control in the UK - and most other places) - is there credible evidence of a British Deep State (again, apart from the obvious domestic security/military/financial/political nexus)?
 

droid

Well-known member
Sweden, Switzerland, Israel - usually put forward as examples to rival Turkey, but it seems to me that once a nation gets to a sufficient size then the Deep State should be assumed unless proven otherwise.
 

droid

Well-known member
Well, the counter argument is that many of the elements of the deep state in the UK are already out in the open.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
once a nation gets to a sufficient size then the Deep State should be assumed unless proven otherwise.

again on the UK

these people can't even control their colleagues. what makes you think they have the wherewithal to control you or i?

im not saying there arent currents of control - or efforts to exercise control but its usually the "deep state's" own fantasy of its own efficacy. they'd like to feel that way certainly.

from my own experience no one has much control of anything. some people's sense of powerlessness is certainly exacerbated by their personal circumstances. i, for instance, as a freelancer feel almost totally powerless. im quite at ease with that though.

im not trying to insult anyone or their intelligence by saying such and such is paranoid behaviour - in fact it does seem a bit rude so sorry - i just hate seeing people torture themselves about things which i dont believe are real.

even the biggest ceos are just riding the wave - and what did terry wogan say (lol) - his success has been down to luck "that's the biggest element"
 

luka

Well-known member
Dont be soft headed barty. If you want to know what the term means you can goggle it but the whole point is it's like, secret man
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm not tortured about it if that reassures you. Its just the way I interpret the data. Everyone does it their own way
 
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