john eden
male pale and stale
Initial thoughts on this, largely for my own benefit I guess. Sorry for length and for repeating what other people have said.
I should point out, as I did on the EU thread, that I am not certain about this and am contributing in the spirit of discussion and clarification.
That said, I think it is unlikely that consensus will be reached. Perhaps that's OK as it is basically privileged white men discussing this issue on the internet. One of the reasons it is hard to reach any kind of agreement is that the data is so hard to come by. This is partly because of the legal situation and partly because of the ethical situation (sex workers being widely regarded as dubious people).
Having said that I haven't read all of the links which have been posted here, because of a lack of time, sorry. Anyway I am trying to go back to my first principles here, so people can "see my working" as Droid has said - rather than pass myself off as an expert or someone who has special knowledge.
Women / Work / Wages
1. Sex work as it currently exists is a product of a patriarchal society and capitalism. My aim is to eradicate both and replace them with something better/fairer.
2. Sex work is a spectrum which includes exchanging penetrative sex for money at one end. But it also includes a bunch of other, less invasive activities. Including stuff which is not necessarily directly sexual (adult babies, bondage etc) for the sex worker or which doesn't involve direct physical contact with another person (cam work, some porn etc).
3. Women are expected to participate in "emotional labour" far more than men are generally.
4. Women's work is generally less well paid than men's work.
5. Women's work generally includes vast amounts of unpaid labour without which society would not be able to function (housework, childrearing etc).
6. Women are more likely than men to be single parents (and so more likely to need to support a family out of a single income).
7. Women have been more adversely affected by the current round of cuts/austerity than men.
I do not find it inconceivable that some women may prefer to engage in some types of sex work rather than get minimum wage (or no wages) for intimate care work, for example wiping the arses of old people. Or other mind numbing activity that takes up more of their time than sex work might/could.
This is obviously not a choice I think is fair - hence my calls up thread for a universal basic income as a transitional demand before we get communism and unicorns.
But I know a woman who has made that choice and seemed relatively happy with it. It is not for me to decree that she needed rescuing.
Morality / Your Daughter
1. Women are judged more harshly than men for sexual transgressions. (I am excluding sexual assault here as I consider that to be more about violence and power than sex). Shane MacGowan apparently worked as a rent boy and this is passed off as an unfortunate phase in his life. Women in the public eye who have worked as sex workers seem completely defined by that forevermore.
2. I have not paid for sex / sex work and think it is unlikely that I would do so in future. It does not fit with my ethical code or how I see myself. Possibly I would reconsider this if my life situation changed harshly - most of the situations I am envisioning involve horrible things happening to me or my partner so I prefer not to vocalise them but I suppose I could if that would be helpful.
3. I've been in a monogamous relationship for 19 years now. And actually have been in monogamous relationships for virtually of my sexually active life. I've never had an affair, even. Woo.
4. There is a vast field of things I do not want my daughter to do. These include taking drugs, being religious, holding fascist beliefs and enjoying the music of Phil Collins. In terms of work I would not want her to join the armed forces, the police force, a firm of bailiffs, anything to do with banking, the Sun newspaper etc. I would also not want her to be a sex worker.
5. It is clear that a significant percentage of the population think about sex and relationships entirely differently from me. Some people of all genders / sexualities just like to fuck around generally and seem happy enough with that. (WRT to Droid's insightful point about sex being a special thing to some people - the sacred peak of a relationship).
6. It is abundantly clear that a large proportion of men have no problem paying for sexual services, even if they are illegal. My guess it that whilst we have capitalism that will always be the case. The logic of capitalism is that there will therefore always be sex workers.
So...
I can't stop my daughter from taking drugs, so I would like to ensure that the drugs she takes and the environment she takes them in are safe - and as free from dangerous people and criminals as possible. Hence why I think regulation of drugs is worth exploring.
I can't stop her going into the Army either - which is why I support efforts to ensure that soldiers have the right training/equipment and also more crucially that sexism/bullying in the forces is challenged.
Ultimately I can't stop her becoming a sex worker either, which is why I think it is important that harm reduction strategies are introduced.
As flagged up in the video I posted on the first page, some sex workers are saying that they would like to be able to go to the police with more confidence when crimes are committed against them in the course of their work. The sex workers in the video are suggesting that decriminalisation is better for them than regulation/legalisation. They are not suggestion neo-abolitionism as a solution.
Are they typical sex workers? Do they represent typical sex workers? Nobody actually knows, do they?
The law
1. Extortion, kidnap, assault, rape etc are already illegal as has been pointed out. How good the police are at ensuring convictions for these crimes varies greatly - and is dependent on their resources as well as their institutional racism, sexism and the prevailing political climate.
2. Investigations by the police are clearly affected by the race, gender, status etc of the participants. I do not see this changing any time soon. Any recourse to legislation must come with an acknowledgement that this will mean more policing - with all the disastrous effects that inevitably brings: “I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn’t make it worse.”
3. Over the last century huge steps have been taken in workplace safety thanks to trade unions, campaigning, legislation etc. People should not expect to be routinely beaten or raped or robbed as part of their work, in the same way that they should not be exposed to asbestos or cigarette smoke. Generally the campaigns that have worked best have had a groundswell of support from the workers themselves. It is hard to get my head around the various sex worker lobby groups but my impression is that harm reduction and safety is something that everyone on this thread can agree on?
4. Safety of the consumers should also be considered. I'm not sure how you can do that without legislation though. Possibly by some ebay-like feedback scheme. It is a lesser issue for me. (I think Ben said that criminalising punters would put people off registering but I'm assuming Bitcoin / silk road etc models might be able to generate a profile which is not traceable - lots of people have online profiles which are distinct from the real life ones - that can be assessed by people for credibility - it's easy to see who is a bot or a nonentity "ranting egg" on twitter, right? But more on tech at the end...
Neo-abolitionism
Now I know what this is, my initial reaction is that making clients who pay for sexual services into criminals will not necessarily help with harm reduction. I'd like to be clearer about what sexual services this would apply to, for starters.
My immediate point would be that if someone who pays for services from a sex
worker is already criminalised that a dynamic has already been set up where the client is prepared to break the law. That may not have a healthy impact on the situation.
Similarly, as said above, if the police already view the situation in a criminal framework that may not help sex workers either. It is all too easy to see cops who are short of arrests staking out people who leave sex work establishments, whether they are guilty of the "crime" of purchasing sex or not. If you were running a business where all of your clients were criminals (by definition) and one of them assaulted you, would you be happy to go to the police and identify your premises or somehow otherwise reveal your other non-violent client base?
Tech / other stuff
More as a throwaway really, but I think we need to consider technological solutions to these issues as well as legislative ones. Peer to peer has had a significant impact on the music business and has lead to a plethora of one man bandcamps. I'm not sure if it's had the same impact yet on the porn industry but I am guessing it will. (I'm amazed that newsagents still stock porn mags - that surely will die out in my lifetime?)
Has tinder had an impact on sex work? What will happen when VR and (ugh) sex-bots are more prevalent?
What are the technologies that can be used for harm reduction in sex work?
I should point out, as I did on the EU thread, that I am not certain about this and am contributing in the spirit of discussion and clarification.
That said, I think it is unlikely that consensus will be reached. Perhaps that's OK as it is basically privileged white men discussing this issue on the internet. One of the reasons it is hard to reach any kind of agreement is that the data is so hard to come by. This is partly because of the legal situation and partly because of the ethical situation (sex workers being widely regarded as dubious people).
Having said that I haven't read all of the links which have been posted here, because of a lack of time, sorry. Anyway I am trying to go back to my first principles here, so people can "see my working" as Droid has said - rather than pass myself off as an expert or someone who has special knowledge.
Women / Work / Wages
1. Sex work as it currently exists is a product of a patriarchal society and capitalism. My aim is to eradicate both and replace them with something better/fairer.
2. Sex work is a spectrum which includes exchanging penetrative sex for money at one end. But it also includes a bunch of other, less invasive activities. Including stuff which is not necessarily directly sexual (adult babies, bondage etc) for the sex worker or which doesn't involve direct physical contact with another person (cam work, some porn etc).
3. Women are expected to participate in "emotional labour" far more than men are generally.
4. Women's work is generally less well paid than men's work.
5. Women's work generally includes vast amounts of unpaid labour without which society would not be able to function (housework, childrearing etc).
6. Women are more likely than men to be single parents (and so more likely to need to support a family out of a single income).
7. Women have been more adversely affected by the current round of cuts/austerity than men.
I do not find it inconceivable that some women may prefer to engage in some types of sex work rather than get minimum wage (or no wages) for intimate care work, for example wiping the arses of old people. Or other mind numbing activity that takes up more of their time than sex work might/could.
This is obviously not a choice I think is fair - hence my calls up thread for a universal basic income as a transitional demand before we get communism and unicorns.
But I know a woman who has made that choice and seemed relatively happy with it. It is not for me to decree that she needed rescuing.
Morality / Your Daughter
1. Women are judged more harshly than men for sexual transgressions. (I am excluding sexual assault here as I consider that to be more about violence and power than sex). Shane MacGowan apparently worked as a rent boy and this is passed off as an unfortunate phase in his life. Women in the public eye who have worked as sex workers seem completely defined by that forevermore.
2. I have not paid for sex / sex work and think it is unlikely that I would do so in future. It does not fit with my ethical code or how I see myself. Possibly I would reconsider this if my life situation changed harshly - most of the situations I am envisioning involve horrible things happening to me or my partner so I prefer not to vocalise them but I suppose I could if that would be helpful.
3. I've been in a monogamous relationship for 19 years now. And actually have been in monogamous relationships for virtually of my sexually active life. I've never had an affair, even. Woo.
4. There is a vast field of things I do not want my daughter to do. These include taking drugs, being religious, holding fascist beliefs and enjoying the music of Phil Collins. In terms of work I would not want her to join the armed forces, the police force, a firm of bailiffs, anything to do with banking, the Sun newspaper etc. I would also not want her to be a sex worker.
5. It is clear that a significant percentage of the population think about sex and relationships entirely differently from me. Some people of all genders / sexualities just like to fuck around generally and seem happy enough with that. (WRT to Droid's insightful point about sex being a special thing to some people - the sacred peak of a relationship).
6. It is abundantly clear that a large proportion of men have no problem paying for sexual services, even if they are illegal. My guess it that whilst we have capitalism that will always be the case. The logic of capitalism is that there will therefore always be sex workers.
So...
I can't stop my daughter from taking drugs, so I would like to ensure that the drugs she takes and the environment she takes them in are safe - and as free from dangerous people and criminals as possible. Hence why I think regulation of drugs is worth exploring.
I can't stop her going into the Army either - which is why I support efforts to ensure that soldiers have the right training/equipment and also more crucially that sexism/bullying in the forces is challenged.
Ultimately I can't stop her becoming a sex worker either, which is why I think it is important that harm reduction strategies are introduced.
As flagged up in the video I posted on the first page, some sex workers are saying that they would like to be able to go to the police with more confidence when crimes are committed against them in the course of their work. The sex workers in the video are suggesting that decriminalisation is better for them than regulation/legalisation. They are not suggestion neo-abolitionism as a solution.
Are they typical sex workers? Do they represent typical sex workers? Nobody actually knows, do they?
The law
1. Extortion, kidnap, assault, rape etc are already illegal as has been pointed out. How good the police are at ensuring convictions for these crimes varies greatly - and is dependent on their resources as well as their institutional racism, sexism and the prevailing political climate.
2. Investigations by the police are clearly affected by the race, gender, status etc of the participants. I do not see this changing any time soon. Any recourse to legislation must come with an acknowledgement that this will mean more policing - with all the disastrous effects that inevitably brings: “I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn’t make it worse.”
3. Over the last century huge steps have been taken in workplace safety thanks to trade unions, campaigning, legislation etc. People should not expect to be routinely beaten or raped or robbed as part of their work, in the same way that they should not be exposed to asbestos or cigarette smoke. Generally the campaigns that have worked best have had a groundswell of support from the workers themselves. It is hard to get my head around the various sex worker lobby groups but my impression is that harm reduction and safety is something that everyone on this thread can agree on?
4. Safety of the consumers should also be considered. I'm not sure how you can do that without legislation though. Possibly by some ebay-like feedback scheme. It is a lesser issue for me. (I think Ben said that criminalising punters would put people off registering but I'm assuming Bitcoin / silk road etc models might be able to generate a profile which is not traceable - lots of people have online profiles which are distinct from the real life ones - that can be assessed by people for credibility - it's easy to see who is a bot or a nonentity "ranting egg" on twitter, right? But more on tech at the end...
Neo-abolitionism
Now I know what this is, my initial reaction is that making clients who pay for sexual services into criminals will not necessarily help with harm reduction. I'd like to be clearer about what sexual services this would apply to, for starters.
My immediate point would be that if someone who pays for services from a sex
worker is already criminalised that a dynamic has already been set up where the client is prepared to break the law. That may not have a healthy impact on the situation.
Similarly, as said above, if the police already view the situation in a criminal framework that may not help sex workers either. It is all too easy to see cops who are short of arrests staking out people who leave sex work establishments, whether they are guilty of the "crime" of purchasing sex or not. If you were running a business where all of your clients were criminals (by definition) and one of them assaulted you, would you be happy to go to the police and identify your premises or somehow otherwise reveal your other non-violent client base?
Tech / other stuff
More as a throwaway really, but I think we need to consider technological solutions to these issues as well as legislative ones. Peer to peer has had a significant impact on the music business and has lead to a plethora of one man bandcamps. I'm not sure if it's had the same impact yet on the porn industry but I am guessing it will. (I'm amazed that newsagents still stock porn mags - that surely will die out in my lifetime?)
Has tinder had an impact on sex work? What will happen when VR and (ugh) sex-bots are more prevalent?
What are the technologies that can be used for harm reduction in sex work?
