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Thread: prostitution

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO over easy View Post
    Listen to sex workers and shut up.

    The end.

    Thanks for your enlightening contribution and good night

  2. #32
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    at what point does sex work not offend your sensibilities as someone self-declared "as liberal as they come"? would you ban porn too? or would you allow soft-core stuff? how about advertising referencing sex? you're going to have to find a lot of jobs. are you going to match their earnings?

    sex work isn't just people working on the streets full time in desperate conditions, it exists across a huge spectrum and huge numbers of people are involved to greater or lesser extents. you probably know a bunch of people who have done sex work. you don't get to decide who is empowered and who isn't.

    so you can continue having your ridiculous 'what if' imaginary world discussion about other people if you want

    http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/What-...rs-want-Toni-M - you should watch this instead though
    Last edited by UFO over easy; 01-05-2016 at 11:35 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny B View Post
    I kind of hate to do this but: Would you be perfectly comfortable with your own daughter becoming a prostitute. If not, why not?
    I'd probably not be overwhelmed with joy by the idea of my daughter cleaning toilets for a living, but that doesn't mean I think no-one should allowed to do it. Ultimately I'd prefer her to be happy, and if she achieves this by perfoming brain surgery, cleaning toilets or having sex with strangers, then so be it.

    All your objections basically boil down to "sex work is icky and gross, no-one could possibly consent to doing it in any meaningful way, ergo sex workers need rescuing from their unfortunate circumstances/their own weakness and stupidity". And I'm convinced "sex work is icky and gross" comes from "sex workERS are icky and gross".
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  4. #34
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    Strange that you of all people take an anti-academic line. You rightly say that more prostitutes' voices should be heard but that's hardly feminists' fault. Lots of research is carried out, they're not just making this stuff up!
    Sex workers are systematically excluded from these academic conversations because they don't satisfy 'academic criteria'. They may be interviewed by academics and used as research tools but that's not the same as actively involving them in the conversation.

    The abolitionist arguments I've read (from feminists or not) are backed up with research and the horrific statistics of abuse and murder caused by the sex industry pretty much speak for themselves.
    Violence and murder are caused by a huge amount of intersecting problems - obvious distrust of the police, criminalisation, the fact that sex workers are often simply not believed or assumed to have 'deserved' it. The people who are pushing against all this are sex workers themselves, through organisations like Ugly Mugs, because the system is not on their side - if you are serious about ending abuse and violence, you should donate: https://uknswp.org/um/

    Here is a study showing that criminalisation of clients (often pushed by abolitionists as a way to prevent violence and abuse without criminalising sex workers) actually makes sex workers more vulnerable to abuse by making it harder for them to effectively screen clients and operate in safe working conditions - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24889853. It also shows that as usual, this applies disproportionately to low-income street based workers.
    Last edited by UFO over easy; 01-05-2016 at 11:12 PM.

  5. #35
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    I dont agree with Benny, certainly on the moral position, but sex worker advocacy groups like the scarlet alliance cannot, by definition speak for the hundreds of thousands of women forced into prostitution. For every German or Australian sex worker who controls her own income and terms of employment, there must be dozens who are trafficked and effectively enslaved.

    My default position on most of these kind of issues is 'let women sort it out', but there is a valid argument that many women involved in prostitution are effectively voiceless, so from that point of view I don't see any major problem with having these conversations as long as they are non-proscriptive.

    It's a difficult one, with loads of opposing but valid claims... ...regulation seems like the least worst option to me, but I can sympathise with other POV's.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny B View Post
    Thanks for your enlightening contribution and good night
    Tell us how you aim to abolish sex work or shut up.

  7. #37
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    The anti-trafficking position obviously sounds very rational but in reality it often seems to go hand in hand with general anti-migration stuff. A lot of women who worked as sex workers in London were deported based on police testimony that they'd been 'trafficked' after the recent soho raids, and a lot of trafficking figures have been debunked based on the definition they use etc

    Here's an article about it based on a SWOU meeting in 2009 - https://bristolnoborders.wordpress.c...ing-is-a-myth/

    Another here with some contributions from Laura Agustin - http://distributedrepublic.net/archi...n-trafficking/

    "She is critical of the conflation of the terms "human trafficking" with "prostitution" and "migration", arguing that what she calls the "rescue industry" often ascribes victim status to and thereby objectifies women who have made conscious and rational decisions to migrate. She advocates for a more nuanced study of migrant sex workers."

    For every German or Australian sex worker who controls her own income and terms of employment, there must be dozens who are trafficked and effectively enslaved.
    Criminalisation makes it pretty hard to conduct the research you would need to verify that.
    Last edited by UFO over easy; 01-05-2016 at 11:10 PM.

  8. #38
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    I dont really know much about the situation in the UK, and I agree the area is mired in some controversy, but on the other hand the ILO claims that 4.5 million people globally (which is what I meant in my post upthread) are subjected to forced sexual exploitation each year... http://www.ilo.org/global/topics/for...--en/index.htm

  9. #39
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    My feeling is that crack-downs on sex workers and their clients do absolutely nothing to stem that.

  10. #40
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    Yeah, thats probably true, but my point is that there are competing narratives here.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by john eden View Post
    Tell us how you aim to abolish sex work or shut up.


    Look I'm trying to be civil. I will be back with more arguments and evidence asap (later this week hopefully) but am obv quite conscious of walking into a flame war. Ben ufo couldn't have been more disrespectful here and I ask you not to follow suit thanks

  12. #42
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    Your priorities are weird. Would you have preferred it if I'd asked you politely to be quiet instead?
    Last edited by UFO over easy; 02-05-2016 at 07:37 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO over easy View Post
    Your priorities are weird. Would you have preferred it if I'd asked you politely to be quiet instead?

    What do you think my priorities are exactly? What sort of attention do you think YOU deserve? I've been civil. I would never have told u to shut up. I will not shut up. I've never once advocated the criminalization of prostitutes or crackdowns on sex workers. You haven't engaged in half the points I made in the first post anyway.This argument is complex and will take a while to roll out but I will try. Meanwhile maybe you could just stick your fingers in your ears?

  14. #44
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    Droid seems to be getting somewhere. The responses have been very UK centric so far

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny B View Post
    Look I'm trying to be civil. I will be back with more arguments and evidence asap (later this week hopefully) but am obv quite conscious of walking into a flame war. Ben ufo couldn't have been more disrespectful here and I ask you not to follow suit thanks
    It's only turning into a flame war because you clearly have a highly developed position on this - and started this thread - but haven't really expanded on it despite politely being asked to do so.

    I think we're all pretty safe on here these days - Woebot was fearful of catching all sorts of grief on his EU thread but it was a good respectful discussion.

    I have friends who have been sex workers so it's a bit less abstract than the EU for me. Possibly that is true of other posters too.

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