prostitution

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Tell us how you aim to abolish sex work or shut up.



Look I'm trying to be civil. I will be back with more arguments and evidence asap (later this week hopefully) but am obv quite conscious of walking into a flame war. Ben ufo couldn't have been more disrespectful here and I ask you not to follow suit thanks
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Your priorities are weird. Would you have preferred it if I'd asked you politely to be quiet instead?
 
Last edited:

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Your priorities are weird. Would you have preferred it if I'd asked you politely to be quiet instead?


What do you think my priorities are exactly? What sort of attention do you think YOU deserve? I've been civil. I would never have told u to shut up. I will not shut up. I've never once advocated the criminalization of prostitutes or crackdowns on sex workers. You haven't engaged in half the points I made in the first post anyway.This argument is complex and will take a while to roll out but I will try. Meanwhile maybe you could just stick your fingers in your ears?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Look I'm trying to be civil. I will be back with more arguments and evidence asap (later this week hopefully) but am obv quite conscious of walking into a flame war. Ben ufo couldn't have been more disrespectful here and I ask you not to follow suit thanks

It's only turning into a flame war because you clearly have a highly developed position on this - and started this thread - but haven't really expanded on it despite politely being asked to do so.

I think we're all pretty safe on here these days - Woebot was fearful of catching all sorts of grief on his EU thread but it was a good respectful discussion.

I have friends who have been sex workers so it's a bit less abstract than the EU for me. Possibly that is true of other posters too.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
It's only turning into a flame war because you clearly have a highly developed position on this - and started this thread - but haven't really expanded on it despite politely being asked to do so.



I think we're all pretty safe on here these days - Woebot was fearful of catching all sorts of grief on his EU thread but it was a good respectful discussion.


.

I've said ill be happy to expand on my position. Last night I was in a bar on my phone and today I've got a baby to look after. Give me a chance!
Obv it's an emotive issue but I wont be told to just shut up. My partner is a survivor of gender based violence and has worked with prostitutes and women who are abused fwiw
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
ok I've got a spare 5 minutes, lets start again, with Danish ex-prostitute Tanja Rahm's open letter to her clients. this is where my sympathies lie


Abolish Prostitution Now
18 de enero de 2014 ·
FOR YOU, WHO BUY SEX
By Tanja Rahm
Dear sex customer,
If you think that I ever felt attracted to you, you are terribly mistaken. I have never had any desire to go to work, not once. The only thing on my mind was to make money, and fast. Do not confuse that with easy money, it was never easy. Fast, yes. Because I quickly learned the many tricks to get you to come as quickly as possible, so I could get you off of me, or from under me, or from behind me.
And no, you never turned me on during the act. I was a great actress. For years I have had the opportunity to practice for free. Actually, it falls under the concept of multitasking. Because while you lay there, my thoughts were always elsewhere. Somewhere where I was not confronted with you sucking out my self respect, without spending as much as ten seconds on the reality of the situation, or to look me in the eye.
If you thought you were doing me a favour by paying me for thirty minutes or an hour, you were wrong. I would rather have had you in and out as fast as possible. When you thought yourself to my holy saviour, asking what a pretty girl like me was doing in a place like that, you lost your halo when you proceeded to ask me to lie down on my back, and then put all your efforts into feeling my body as much as possible with your hands. Actually, I would have preferred if you had gotten down on your back and had let me do my job.
When you thought you could boost your masculinity by getting me to climax, you need to know that I faked it. I could have won a gold medal in faking it. I faked it so much, that the receptionist would nearly fall off of her chair laughing. What did you expect? You were perhaps number three, or number five, or eight that day. Did you really think I was able to get turned on mentally or physically by having sex with men I did not choose myself? Not ever. My genitals were burning. From lubricant and condoms. And I was tired. So tired, that often I had to be careful not to close my eyes for fear of falling asleep while my moaning continued on autopilot.
If you thought you paid for loyalty or small talk, you need to think again. I had zero interest in your excuses. I did not care that your wife had SPD, and that you just could not go without sex. Or when you offered any other pathetic excuse for coming to buy sex with me. When you thought I understood you and had sympathy for you, it was all a lie. I had nothing but contempt for you, and at the same time you destroyed something inside of me. You sowed the seeds of doubt in me. Doubt as to whether all men were just as cynical and unfaithful as you were.
When you praised my appearance, my body, or my sexual abilities, you could just as well have vomited on me. You did not see the person behind the mask. You only saw that which confirmed your illusion of a raunchy woman with an unstoppable sex drive. In fact, you never said what you thought I wanted to hear. Instead, you said what you yourself needed to hear. You said that, which was needed to preserve your illusion, and which prevented you from thinking about how I had ended up where I was at twenty years of age. Basically you did not care at all. Because you had one goal only, and that was to show off your power by paying me to use my body as it pleased you.
When a drop of blood appeared on the condom, it was not because my period had just come. It was because my body was a machine, one that could not be interrupted by a monthly cycle, so I inserted a sponge into my vagina, when I menstruated. To be able to continue on the sheets. And no, I did not go home after you had finished. I continued working, telling the next customer exactly the same story that you had heard. You were all so consumed with your own lust that a little menstrual blood did not stop you.
When you came with objects, lingerie, costumes or toys, and wanted erotic role-play, my inner machine took over. I was disgusted with you and your sometimes quite sick fantasies. The same goes for the times when you smiled and said that I looked like a seventeen-year-old girl. It did not help that you yourself were fifty, sixty, seventy, or older.
When you regularly violated my boundaries by either kissing me, or inserting our fingers into me, or taking off your condom, you did it knowing perfectly well that it was against the rules. You were testing my ability to say no. And you enjoyed it when I did not object clearly enough, or when I too often would simply ignore it. And then you used it in a perverted way to show how much power you had and that you could cross my boundaries. When I finally told you off, and made it clear that I would not have you as a customer again if you could not respect the rules, you insulted me and my role as prostitute. You were condescending, threatening and rude.
When you buy sex, it says a lot about you, your humanity, and your sexuality. To me, it is a sign of your weakness, even though you confuse it with a sick sort of power and status. You think you have a right. I mean, the prostitutes are out there anyway, right? But they are only prostitutes because men like you stand in the way of healthy and respectful relationship between men and women. Prostitutes only exist because men like you feel you have the right to satisfy your sexual urges using the orifices of other people’s bodies. Prostitutes exist because you and your peers feel that your sexuality requires access to sex whenever it suits you. Prostitutes exist because you are a misogynist, and because you are more concerned with your own sexual needs than the relationships, in which your sexuality could actually flourish.
When you buy sex, it reveals that you have not found the core within your own sexuality. I feel sorry for you, I really do. That you are so mediocre that you think that sex is all about ejaculating into a stranger’s vagina. And if one is not handy, it is never further away than down the street, where you can pay an unknown woman to be able to empty yourself into a rubber while inside of her. What a petty and frustrated man you must be. A man unable to create profound and intimate relationships, in which the connection runs deeper than just your ejaculation. A man, who expresses his feelings through his climaxes, who does not have the ability to verbalise them, but prefers to channel them through his genitals to get rid himself of them. What a weak masculinity. A truly masculine man would never degrade himself by paying for sex.
As far as your humanity goes, I believe in the good in people, also in you. I know that deep down you have a conscience. That you have quietly wondered whether what you did was ethically and morally justifiable. I also know that you defend your actions and likely think that you treated me well, were kind, never mean or did not violate my boundaries. But you know what? That is called evading your responsibility. You are not confronting reality. You delude yourself in thinking that the people, you buy, are not bought. Not forced into prostitution. Maybe you even think that you did me a favour and gave me a break by talking about the weather, or giving me a little massage before you penetrated me. It did me no favours. All it did was confirm to me that I was not worth more. That I was a machine, whose primary function was to let others exploit my sexuality.
I have many experiences from prostitution. They enable me to write this letter to you. But it is a letter, which I would much rather not have written. These are experiences I wish I could have avoided.
You of course you thought of yourself as one of the nice customers. But there are no nice customers. Just those who confirm the women’s negative view of themselves.
Take my hand and see me for the person I am on the inside. Let us go together to make a difference in the future. Let us raise our voices to our friends, our girlfriends, our business associates, our bosses, our politicians, and last but not least, to the prostituted. Let us raise our voices together and say that sex is private. Let us shout that sex is not a product on a shelf, but that it can cost dearly if it is treated as one. Let us scream to the world that money and sex do no belong together, and that sex belong to all together different and mutually reciprocal relationships. Because in this case, you will re-concur my respect and I will see you as the person you are, and not just as a buyer of sex, seduced by an illusion.
Yours truly,
Tanja Rahm
http://www.welt.de/…/Ich-ekelte-mich-vor-Euch-und-Euren-Fan…

more here: http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4233-former-prostitute-opens-up-discussion-on-ban-in-norway
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Benny B said:
The responses have been very UK centric so far

Obviously there's no global catch all, and obviously people feel more qualified to comment based on the places where they have experience of living.

What do you think my priorities are exactly?

I'd much rather be the kind of person who feels angry at posts like yours than the kind of person who feels so 'disrespected' by that that it becomes their main focus. That's all you've said in response to me so far, despite being asked to engage and expand on your position repeatedly by several people and despite the fact that against every instinct I actually did actually engage with your posts, despite my initial unforgivable rudeness.

What does that letter have to do with sex work policy?
 
Last edited:

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
good, concise two page summary of the outcomes of legalisation/decriminalisation in germany, new zealand, australia, the netherlands and senegal here:

http://www.equalitynow.org/sites/de...g_Prostitution_Protect_Women_and_Girls_EN.pdf

if you think its tl;dr the short version is:
1. decriminalising those who buy sex has done nothing to reduce sex trafficking and exploitation.
2. Regularisation and 'monitoring' has been a total failure.
3. sexual violence is not reduced or reported,
4. prostitutes remain stigmatised and dicriminated against.
5. access to health services and benefits has not improved.

in fact all of these problems have only got worse under decriminalisation.
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Benny B said:
good, concise two page summary of the outcomes of legalisation/decriminalisation in germany, new zealand, australia, the netherlands and senegal here:

http://www.equalitynow.org/sites/def...d_Girls_EN.pdf

Equality Now is an organisation that has repeatedly attempted to de-fund sex worker rights groups led by sex workers themselves, which have been instrumental in providing access to healthcare globally in countries where sex work is fully or partially illegal and stigmatized, and their representatives have described sex worker led healthcare initiatives as fronts for trafficking and pimping in order to achieve that.

Here's NSWP's response to Equality Now's attack on the UN recommendation for sex work decriminalisation - http://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/final nswp statement Equality Now Attack on UN.pdf

"While NSWP is delighted that attention is being drawn to these recent UN
reports, which both strongly recommend the decriminalisation of sex work as
the best way to ensure sex workers have full access to human rights, health,
and justice, we condemn:
● the attack on the rights of sex workers to effective rights-based
programming as their best protection against HIV;
● the irresponsible and deliberate conflation of sex work with trafficking,
which has been shown repeatedly to harm both sex workers, and
people who are genuinely trafficked into a range of industries;
● the continued promotion of the failed Swedish model as a ‘solution’; a
‘solution’ that further harms those it purports to help, and makes
invisible the majority of sex workers;

● the denial of the existence of sex workers and sex work. This ignores
the self-evident existence - and self-advocacy - of millions of sex
workers of all genders from all over the world, especially women; and
● the deliberate misrepresentation of the UN reports, as “failing” to
“include” the voices of those who have sold sex. Both UN reports were
written in close consultation, and with substantial input from current
sex workers. One look at the acknowledgements page and a more
detailed look at the methodologies would demonstrate this fact."

Benny B said:
in fact all of these problems have only got worse under decriminalisation.

That's not what your article says.
 
Last edited:

UFO over easy

online mahjong
errr...have you read it?

ugh, was a quick post in anger - of course i've read it. she hated her clients and her experience of sex work.

but sorry let me rephrase the question - what does that letter have to do with the implementation of sex work policy which would aim for the complete abolition of sex work, which is what you are calling for? that's what you were asked and what i thought this conversation was about, and your responses so far haven't even started to address that.
 
Last edited:

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Here's NSWP's response to Equality Now's attack on the UN recommendation for sex work decriminalisation - http://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/final nswp statement Equality Now Attack on UN.pdf

s.

ok I'll try and break it down a bit, taking each of the human rights listed in that NSWP document

• The right to work, to free choice of employment, and to just and favourable conditions of work

Impossible to achieve under decriminalisation. Read that letter again, about the working conditions, and above all, about the clients. Then see what has actually happened to working conditions in the countries that have decriminalized clients

• The right to life, liberty and security of person

Impossible under decriminalisation – their safety is not increased and violent crimes remain unreported.

• The right to be free from arbitrary interference with one’s private and family life, home or correspondence and from attacks on honour and reputation

But yet prostitutes remain stigmatised in countries with decriminalisation, and are still regularly threatened and abused by the general public, pimps (since regularization has failed to remove them from the equation) and clients alike.

• The right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health

Decriminalisation has not improved access to health services. Many prostitutes have been abused all their lives and the effects and risks on health of doing this ‘work’ are devastating. Read the letter again and see what it does to a persons sense of self-worth

• The right to freedom of movement and residence

Fine.

• The right to be free from slavery, forced labour and servitude

…by the criminal organisations that have benefitted from decriminalization and been given carte blanche to continue exploitation. This is a $99bn global industry, where do you think all that money goes?

• The right to equal protection of the law and protection against discrimination and any incitement to discrimination under any of the varied and intersecting status of gender, race, citizenship, sexual orientation etc

Fine, but prostitutes in countries that have decriminalization continue to be marginalized and discriminated against, while those men who pay for sex with minors receive light sentences, unreported sexual violence increases etc etc. Do you see a pattern here?

• The right to marry and found a family

Fine. I can’t imagine its easy to be a prostitute and sustain a happy family life.

• The right to peaceful assembly and association

Fine. This is what abolitionists want too.

• The right to leave any country, including one’s own, and to return to one’s own country

Again not saying anything abolitionists aren’t saying. Especially when you see the figures on forced prostitution and immigrants.

• The right to participate in the cultural and public life of society

ok, i think where you get where im coming from by now
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Amnesty's position as well as of more recently - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/08/sex-workers-rights-are-human-rights/

These are enormous global organisations who have spent years conducting research, so maybe that will address Benny's concern that this is all getting a bit 'UK-centric'.

brief but decent response here, with plenty of good links.

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...ional-prostitution-sex-work-human-trafficking


edit: gotta go now, will be back later
 
Last edited:

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Fine, but prostitutes in countries that have decriminalization continue to be marginalized and discriminated against, while those men who pay for sex with minors receive light sentences, unreported sexual violence increases etc etc. Do you see a pattern here?

the pattern i see is misogyny. you don't combat that by waging an unrealistic and (itself a misogynist) war on sex work and sex workers based on some fantasy of what you think the world should look like, as opposed to what it actually looks like now for the people who are living this.


Benny B said:
Decriminalisation has not improved access to health services.

A source would be great, preferably from an organisation that doesn't discount the repeated testimonies of sex-worker led health initiatives on the basis that they are a 'pimp lobby'. So far that's been your only source. That Guardian article was also written by EN's co-founder unsurprisingly.

Benny B said:
Impossible to achieve under decriminalisation. Read that letter again, about the working conditions, and above all, about the clients. Then see what has actually happened to working conditions in the countries that have decriminalized clients

Many sex workers in situations where clients are criminalised have no choice but to visit their clients at home, where they've been shown to be more at risk. In these countries sex workers are less likely to report abuse to the police, for among many things fear of arrest/deportation, disbelief, and generally hostile attitudes towards them and their work as 'criminal' even when it is not. If less people feel comfortable reporting abuse and violence, police stats look much nicer. Again, distrust of the police and the state is why sex worker led organisations like Ugly Mugs are essential - https://uknswp.org/um/

Benny B said:
But yet prostitutes remain stigmatised in countries with decriminalisation, and are still regularly threatened and abused by the general public, pimps (since regularization has failed to remove them from the equation) and clients alike.

We might make some progress with that if you and Julie Bindel stop saying things like this - "selling your body to 5 or 6 complete strangers a day for years on end is exploitation, no matter how much they get paid. if it is to be considered work, then it is unlike any other."

Benny B said:
…by the criminal organisations that have benefitted from decriminalization and been given carte blanche to continue exploitation.

This is tabloid territory man, and it's not what's happened. Human trafficking is still illegal, forcing people into the sex trade is illegal. These things aren't sex work, don't conflate them. It's manipulative and disgusting. No one is saying the sex industry shouldn't be regulated, like any other industry either. 'Criminals' and 'pimps' aren't being given the go ahead to exploit people - that's not sex worker advocacy. If that's not what your saying, perhaps you can clarify.

Benny B said:
but do you see anything positive in these outcomes? or is it simply that the status quo has been maintained? they certainly havent improved matters

"Decriminalisation and regulation lead to more accurate statistics, safer working environments and potential renewal of trust in the system" is a much less grabby headline than "evil pimp criminals take advantage of sex work lobby in EU UN conspiracy - and YOUR daughter could be next!"

Benny B said:
I can’t imagine its easy to be a prostitute and sustain a happy family life.

That's literally your response to a sex worker organisation stating their collective right to family life (not 'happy' family life btw. i imagine family life is different for everyone and happiness isn't a human right as far as i know - but again you sound very sheltered. like i said upthread, sex work is something huge numbers of people do or have done to greater or lesser extents for a multitude of purposes, and you probably know people who have been involved yourself). This is clearly what it comes down to for you. You seem to think the work is nasty and therefore the people must too be nasty and miserable. Your position is misogynist and hostile to sex workers. I think based on several things you've said in this thread that's worth saying bluntly.

You still haven't answered any questions about how you'd like to see the implementation of abolition, and which forms of sexual labour you'd like to see abolished.
 
Last edited:

UFO over easy

online mahjong
I also feel like noting here that despite one person in this thread already telling you that they have friends who have worked in the sex industry, you are continuing to repeatedly use a word that is now widely considered a slur.

http://titsandsass.com/the-p-word-101/ - here is an explanation as to why, if you need one
 
Top